# What is the lesson of Passover? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963 "2010-02-22T13:15:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/81 "2010-02-23T02:14:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You think a Modern Orthodox Rabbi would lie? 🙂 How does rabbi Krustovsky’s line go? “A rabbi doesn’t lie. He may exaggerate. He may tell stories that never happened. But, he does not lie.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/82 "2010-02-23T02:36:59Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > That’s your response? :rolleyes: > > I cite an interpretation that’s a millenia or two old and you say “You gotta be kidding, right?” > You yourself just posted about how fearsome G-d could be. Yes…but what in the name of anything would the god want to stop Pharaoh from being fearful. The god was doing everything in its power to make Pharaoh as fearful as possible! What am I missing here? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/83 "2010-02-23T02:39:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > We were invited to Pesach by the new Rabbi. He told us spilling the drops of wine represented tears for the Egyptians who died in the plagues. Even if Jews do spill drops of wine as tears for the Egyptians…that does not detract from the fact that the god thought it to be perfectly alright to slaughter them. At best, one could say the god was having a very bad day. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/84 "2010-02-23T02:45:16Z")
**Frank** you seem to be missing something that believers take for granted. Death is no biggie. If we believe that the soul endures, death is a mere changing of clothes and scenery. That the survivors felt pain and loss is a valid argument. But that the firstborn who actually died lost something is not. Do I miss dead loved ones? Of course I do. But as a pagan friend reminded me when my father died “It’s not like you’ll never see him again.” ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/85 "2010-02-23T02:47:33Z")
This would be an interesting thread on some sort of Jewish board. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/86 "2010-02-23T02:51:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > This would be an interesting thread on some sort of Jewish board. 🙂 Yeah, but I love the perspectives of Christians, pagans, and atheists you get on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/87 "2010-02-23T03:05:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Frank** you seem to be missing something that believers take for granted. > > Death is no biggie. > > If we believe that the soul endures, death is a mere changing of clothes and scenery. That the survivors felt pain and loss is a valid argument. But that the firstborn who actually died lost something is not. > > Do I miss dead loved ones? Of course I do. But as a pagan friend reminded me when my father died “It’s not like you’ll never see him again.” Similarly death by stoning doesn’t matter too much. It’s just a moment’s discomfort, and if it turns out that the punishment was a tad harsh, well, it will all get sorted out at the after party. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/88 "2010-02-23T03:09:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Similarly death by stoning doesn’t matter too much. > > It’s just a moment’s discomfort, and if it turns out that the punishment was a tad harsh, well, it will all get sorted out at the after party. Death by stoning can only be handed out by a properly gathered sanhedrin. It was an extremely rare sentence and all kinds of anti-death penalty bits are worked into sanhedrin procedure to keep it that way. Also remember that you are comparing the actions of G-d with those of man. He can act with perfect wisdom. We cannot. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/89 "2010-02-23T08:22:16Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Also remember that you are comparing the actions of G-d with those of man. He can act with perfect wisdom. We cannot. Actually I was just comparing the excusing of god’s cruelty with the excusing of human cruelty. (And I was doing so in a tongue in cheek way because I was not absolutely sure that you were being serious). The point is, you can’t have it both ways. If “there’s an eternal afterlife” is sufficient reasoning to make god’s cruelty in Passover and other events OK – then we humans can use the same excuse, and death and injustice aren’t really important in this short phase of existence. But if you say “But we don’t _know_ there’s an afterlife”, well then _neither do you_ and you cannot use it as a mitigating factor for god. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/90 "2010-02-23T13:11:07Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Frank** you seem to be missing something that believers take for granted. > > Death is no biggie. > > If we believe that the soul endures, death is a mere changing of clothes and scenery. That the survivors felt pain and loss is a valid argument. But that the firstborn who actually died lost something is not. > > Do I miss dead loved ones? Of course I do. But as a pagan friend reminded me when my father died “It’s not like you’ll never see him again.” I am not missing it at all…and I seriously doubt most “believers” really take it for granted. If they did, it seems the most generous thing they could do would be to slaughter as many innocents as possible…so that they cannot sin or offend any god and thereby be denied entry into Heaven…or enjoy “eternal life” as the case may be. What could be more charitable than a guaranteed trip to Heaven? I’ve often mentioned in arguments with anti-abortion folks claiming to have “saved lives” by stopping abortions…that if they are right about how their god works, they may well have condemned many of those souls unnecessarily to Hell with all that “saving” they were doing. Often they are “saving” kids who are not wanted…or who have parents unwilling to take on the awesome responsibility of parenthood. Often they are kids being born with a couple of strikes against them. So don’t be so quick to suppose I am “missing” any part of the argument. The slaughter of the innocents is barbaric by any standard…except the standard of “If my god does it, it is a fine thing to be doing.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/91 "2010-02-23T13:13:04Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Death by stoning can only be handed out by a properly gathered sanhedrin. It was an extremely rare sentence and all kinds of anti-death penalty bits are worked into sanhedrin procedure to keep it that way. > > Also remember that you are comparing the actions of G-d with those of man. He can act with perfect wisdom. We cannot. Is this something you know for a fact…or is it something you are supposing because it makes some of the barbaric deeds of the god seem less barbaric? Do you know for a fact that there is a GOD…and that the god can (and does) act with perfect wisdom…or is that just rationalization? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/92 "2010-02-23T13:14:54Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Yeah, but I love the perspectives of Christians, pagans, and atheists you get on this board. Since I disagree with you on so many things…allow me this opportunity to agree…enthusiastically. Nothing like getting a variety of perspectives. I’ve broached this issue on all sorts of boards…and never been disappointed with the resulting conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/93 "2010-02-23T14:47:19Z")
The Lord’s Table: Passover and the Last Supper Christ is our Passover, and in the supper we eat and drink the ultimate Passover feast. Or maybe not quite the ultimate. One of the lessons of Passover, and of the Supper, is that we are pilgrims in this world. But there’s a right way and a wrong way to be a pilgrim. If we think of ourselves as pilgrims in space—now we’re here on earth, but we’re on our way to our home in heaven—then we will behave like rats on a sinking ship. That is, we won’t care at all about the ship. But this is exactly the wrong lesson. You see, we are pilgrims in time. Heaven is important, but it’s not the end of the world.\* We wait for the coming of Christ’s kingdom, and then what a feast we will have—the Lord’s Table, with Christ himself drinking the cup with us in His Father’s kingdom. That kingdom will not be in a far-off heaven, but right here on earth—the very same earth we are commanded to cultivate and protect. Therefore, we live not as pilgrims who are going away, but as pilgrims who are waiting for this world to be turned into our home. And this is the good news that we carry out to our neighbors: this world is passing away, and its lusts. Stand apart from it, and seek the Kingdom of God. Christ died for us so that we need not fall in love with the temporary; He has freed us to seek a home in His eternal Kingdom. * * * \*I am indebted to N. T. Wright for this lovely turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/94 "2010-02-23T15:48:57Z")
I thought the message of Passover was the same as for all Jewish holidays - “They tried to kill us. We’re still here. Let’s eat.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/95 "2010-02-23T17:15:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought the message of Passover was the same as for all Jewish holidays - > > “They tried to kill us. We’re still here. Let’s eat.” > > Regards, > Shodan 🙂 Especially when you can load up on the bagels with cream cheese and lox. My favorite!!! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/96 "2010-02-23T17:31:25Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > 🙂 > > Especially when you can load up on the bagels with cream cheese and lox. > > My favorite!!! No on Passover you don’t. :eek: The exception is Yom Kippur - I feel so guilty that I have no appetite - but I’ll get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/97 "2010-02-23T18:05:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No on Passover you don’t. :eek: > > The exception is Yom Kippur - I feel so guilty that I have no appetite - but I’ll get over it. Actually…the bagels with cream cheese and lox is a favorite for snacks with some Jewish friends of mine. And of course, at Jewish funerals, you get lox, bagels and cream cheese by the table full…along with some of the best conversations ever. As for the religious aspects…well, I am an equal opportunity agnostic. I can do Christmas, Easter, Rosh Hashanah, Kwanzaa, and Eid al-Fitr with the best of ‘em…enjoy ‘em to the max…and never dip a knee to any gods. But I mentioned the bagels with lox and cream cheese because I love that as much as pizza, which is no small thing for an Italian guy from New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/98 "2010-02-23T18:13:58Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Actually…the bagels with cream cheese and lox is a favorite for snacks with some Jewish friends of mine. > > And of course, at Jewish funerals, you get lox, bagels and cream cheese by the table full…along with some of the best conversations ever. > > As for the religious aspects…well, I am an equal opportunity agnostic. I can do Christmas, Easter, Rosh Hashanah, Kwanzaa, and Eid al-Fitr with the best of ‘em…enjoy ‘em to the max…and never dip a knee to any gods. > > But I mentioned the bagels with lox and cream cheese because I love that as much as pizza, which is no small thing for an Italian guy from New Jersey. You were being corrected because _unleavened_ bread-_Matzo_-is served at Passover. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/99 "2010-02-23T18:44:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You were being corrected because _unleavened_ bread-_Matzo_-is served at Passover. The Bread of Affliction, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963/100 "2010-02-23T18:46:21Z")
And charosit. Yum. With horseradish! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-lesson-of-passover/529963.md?page=6)