# What is the maximum extent to which we are allowed to disagree with transgenderism (on the Dope)? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [March 19, 2025, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807 "2025-03-19T03:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2025, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/41 "2025-03-20T22:36:46Z")
> [@songsoflovetrouble](#): > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > I identify as a Jew. Nobody on this board has in 25 years told me that I am not a Jew. Questioning “religious dogma” is not nearly the same as questioning some one’s religious identity. > > > > I have been told by a Black Hebrew (they believe Africans are the real Jewish people and for some reason centuries ago a bunch of white Europeans stole their name) that I was not a Jew. I simply replied “Don’t tell my mother. It would break her poor heart.” > > You are correct in alluding to the fact that there are groups such as the Black Hebrew Israelites who are extremely concerned with identifying who the “real Jews” are. > > I do not believe you are correct in asserting that either the BHI’s opinion on this issue nor the mainstream Jewish response would be barred from discussion here according to the “no challenging identities, even by implication” pseudo-rule. For many reasons, including the fact that [discussions](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/am-i-a-jew/275766) of [who](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/1) is or [is not](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ignorance-hatred-stupidity-ruin-cultural-awareness-day-at-my-sons-school/711289/1) a [Jew](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jews-for-jesus/374790) have in fact happened here for decades including long after the huge focus on trans issues began, and have not, in fact, been curtailed by any such rule. This is a fine example to discuss how the trans rule applies, because i hope it won’t lead people into quibbling about the political (rather than board rules) issues. I happen to think that the Black Hebrew Israelites aren’t Jews in the same sense that i and DocCathode are Jews. But i wouldn’t post about how they are delusional. I wouldn’t say, “Claiming a Jewish religious identity when everyone around them knows that they are gentiles…” I wouldn’t talk to an audience including Black Hebrew Israelites and cite one who decided he’s not really a Jew saying, " he says, ‘i made myself look Jewish in order to manage a mental illness i have’, be like him". I certainly wouldn’t say “if they are so much in their own bubble that they honestly think it’s common for people to use ‘Jew’ to mean ‘person who is totally unrelated to Judaism and has a non-Jewish body and a non-Jewish culture’ then they are wrong and badly connected to reality, but not actually lying (except maybe to themselves).” That doesn’t mean i can’t argue that they shouldn’t join my synagogue without converting, or… There aren’t really a lot of “Jewish only” spaces, but you get the idea.. I wouldn’t say those things because they are incredibly rude, and demeaning to the Black Hebrew Israelites who (like trans women) are perfectly aware that not everyone accepts their definitions. And because I’m implying that they are all mentally ill. And… You know, they aren’t. They are organizing their categories around different definitions than i am, and we both know that. We differ as to which definitions are more valuable, not in who is connected to reality. So I’m still free to argue that they shouldn’t be allowed in “Jewish only” events run by people who define Judaism the way i do. But i need to avoid being an asshole when do it, at least, outside of the pit. And in the case of trans people, who are specifically protected by our board’s rules, i can’t even talk that way in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/42 "2025-03-21T00:59:08Z")
I wasn’t aware of that, either. So thank you for mentioning that here so that I can make a concerted effort to eliminate it from my vocabulary, as well. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/43 "2025-03-21T01:25:59Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Again, we’ll have to disagree. IMHO, you are being judged in light of your prior posts. Which you indicate were based on your misunderstanding. If so, exactly as I said, given time and good faith, others may be happy to assist you, but they aren’t exactly _required_ to do so. I wasn’t expecting random people to assist me, just to not be jerks outside the pit. Everyone has prejudices and preconceptions, and they filter their view of others through them. So IMHO it’s quite hard to change people’s minds, because the same words or actions are interpreted differently depending on what they already believe about you. It’s not helped by people making up accusations, such as a poster in that thread who said I’d ‘already had lots of chances’, which just isn’t true. I’d had one warning a few years ago, on an unrelated issue, and had genuinely been doing my best to follow the rules and avoid trouble since I came back to the board. It made no difference to people’s attitudes. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t say “if they are so much in their own bubble that they honestly think it’s common for people to use ‘Jew’ to mean ‘person who is totally unrelated to Judaism and has a non-Jewish body and a non-Jewish culture’ then they are wrong and badly connected to reality, but not actually lying (except maybe to themselves).” I can easily imagine writing that leftists are in their own bubble, and if they believe the general public agrees with [insert leftist belief here] they are disconnected from reality, or even that they are deluded, without at all intending to imply that leftism is a mental illness. I wouldn’t say it like the quote, but is that going to stop anyone interpreting it as you did? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/44 "2025-03-21T01:42:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I can easily imagine writing that leftists are in their own bubble, and if they believe the general public agrees with [insert leftist belief here] they are disconnected from reality, or even that they are deluded, without at all intending to imply that leftism is a mental illness. As long as you continue to think that being transgender is analogous to having leftist views, I think you’re going to continue to struggle to understand where the line is between a genuine question and being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/45 "2025-03-21T02:22:44Z")
Although…those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Someone can ask a genuine question, and have it be interpreted as jerky by people it may not have been intended for. I’m bad about that. On serious topics, I sometimes forget to be diplomatic, or don’t quite have the understanding or vocabulary to remove what may be considered a rude or inelegant phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/46 "2025-03-21T09:50:31Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > As long as you continue to think that being transgender is analogous to having leftist views, I think you’re going to continue to struggle to understand where the line is between a genuine question and being a jerk. I don’t think they’re analogous. You’re completely missing the point. Look, if I said Hispanics who support Trump are crazy, you wouldn’t think I meant that all Hispanics, or even those specific Hispanics who support Trump, were mentally ill. But that is the same leap as is being made here. This is stupid. I _don’t_ believe trans people are mentally ill, or deluded, or anything like that. I understand the difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. So I’m certainly not about to say anything like that on purpose. I’m just afraid of people twisting my words because they have prejudged me and are therefore interpreting everything in the worst possible light. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/47 "2025-03-21T10:09:53Z")
If you don’t think they’re analogous, why do you keep using the analogy? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/48 "2025-03-21T12:11:27Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m just afraid of people twisting my words because they have prejudged me and are therefore interpreting everything in the worst possible light. > Prejudge: form a judgment on (an issue or person) prematurely and without having adequate information. I don’t think that accurately characterizes what happens with you and this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/49 "2025-03-21T12:11:58Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m just afraid of people twisting my words because they have prejudged me and are therefore interpreting everything in the worst possible light. So be careful. Be thoughtful. Choose your words (and whether to even say them) with consideration. Err on the side of caution. And of course it’s true that you don’t always have to do exactly this for every other topic of discussion, but that’s OK, because _this is not every other topic of conversation_; it’s this one. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/50 "2025-03-21T12:20:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If you don’t think they’re analogous, why do you keep using the analogy? I didn’t, I literally just used a different one. I don’t understand what people aren’t getting here. It’s like it doesn’t matter what I say, people just hear something else. Like being stuck in a nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/51 "2025-03-21T12:28:00Z")
I don’t think any analogies are going to help, or that they are necessary at all. People have told you. clearly and repeatedly, what the expected standard is for discussing this topic and you keep on asking for the answer as if it’s going to change if you just ask one more time. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/52 "2025-03-22T01:36:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m just afraid of people twisting my words because they have prejudged me Well, sometimes you say things that are inaccurate and misleading, and when other posters object to the misleading inaccuracies, you complain that your words are being “twisted”. Take this remark of yours earlier in the thread about the meaning of “transgenderism”, for example: > [@DemonTree](#): > > I would understand it as a common set of beliefs on the subject, ie that everyone has an immutable gender identity and this is what makes them a man, woman, or something else, that people should be treated accordingly in every area of life without regard for aspects of biological sex, and various other things. This is so absolutist an interpretation as to be pretty much useless in practical contexts. For example, I doubt there is more than an extremely tiny minority of transgender-rights supporters who really believe that people should be treated in every area of life without regard for any aspects of birth-assigned sex, genetic or anatomical sex, etc. Nor IME is it particularly common for transgender-rights supporters to maintain that everyone has an immutable gender identity. Transgender people, and other supporters of transgender rights, are generally aware of much more nuance in the various aspects of sex and gender than such broad-brush characterizations would suggest. So your idea of “transgenderism” is basically a strawman opponent, and it’s not “twisting your words” to object to that. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/53 "2025-03-22T13:33:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For example, I doubt there is more than an extremely tiny minority of transgender-rights supporters who really believe that people should be treated in every area of life without regard for any aspects of birth-assigned sex, genetic or anatomical sex, etc. Interesting! Can you name an area that you feel trans people should be treated as their birth sex for, regardless of their personal wishes? Can you name any area that involves someone _other than the trans person’s romantic partners and doctors_ identifying the trans person based on their sex assigned at birth rather than the sex they want to be identified with? Or would you withdraw all objections to this part of her argument if @DemonTree instead said: _people should be treated accordingly in every area of **PUBLIC** life without regard for aspects of biological sex, and various other things._ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/54 "2025-03-22T13:42:47Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Can you name any area that involves someone _other than the trans person’s romantic partners and doctors_ identifying the trans person based on their sex assigned at birth rather than the sex they want to be identified with? Why exclude the two main ones? > [@Babale](#): > > Or would you withdraw all objections to this part of her argument if @DemonTree instead said: > > _people should be treated accordingly in every area of **PUBLIC** life without regard for aspects of biological sex, and various other things._ But she didn’t, did she? And is treating people in the qualified way you present an extremist position? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/55 "2025-03-22T13:46:58Z")
**Moderator Note** We seem to be getting into actual transgender issues like how people should be addressed, which is not a topic for ATMB. Let’s keep all discussions relevant to the rules of the SDMB and how they are enforced, and if any changes should be made to those rules. Let’s also keep in mind that we have two main goals here: 1. We want to allow the discussion and debate of transgender issues, and allow CIVIL disagreements and discussions (you can disagree, but treat others with respect). 2. We don’t want to make the SDMB a hostile place for our transgender members. We want all people to feel welcome here. Transgender issues outside of the scope of the rules and moderation should be discussed in the appropriate forum/category, not in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![songsoflovetrouble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@songsoflovetrouble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/songsoflovetrouble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/56 "2025-03-22T15:01:47Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Let’s also keep in mind that we have two main goals here: > > 1. We want to allow the discussion and debate of transgender issues, and allow CIVIL disagreements and discussions (you can disagree, but treat others with respect). > 2. We don’t want to make the SDMB a hostile place for our transgender members. We want all people to feel welcome here. I do not see how these stated goals are compatible so long as any disagreement with the maximalist trans-activist position on any issue is considered sanctionable “being a jerk” because it upsets trans posters, which is both what multiple people have asserted is the rule in this thread and, de facto, how the policy is actually enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/57 "2025-03-22T15:05:52Z")
And yet, plenty of posters have challenged that maximalist view in this forum without being warned. Really, the _only_ thing that catches a warning is opining on irrelevant metaphysical questions. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807/58 "2025-03-22T15:06:30Z")
For any number of years, my beloved brother has determined that pretty much _everybody_ is to the political left of him. It hasn’t occurred to him that the issue might be where _he_ stands on the political spectrum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-maximum-extent-to-which-we-are-allowed-to-disagree-with-transgenderism-on-the-dope/1015807.md?page=2)