# What is the meaning of this Zen koan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 23, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704 "2006-07-23T13:50:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/1 "2006-07-23T13:50:40Z")
Well, not necessarily the whole koan, since that ruins the whole point of contemplating a koan. But some words I just don’t know: > [@](#): > > A monk asked: “At the top of a 100-foot pole, how do I step forward?” > > Ch’ang-sha said: **“Mountains of Lang, rivers of Li.”** > > The monk confessed he did not understand. > > Ch’ang-sha tried again: “The four seas and five lakes are all under the reign of the king.” What the heck are **“Mountains of Lang, rivers of Li”**? Who or what are Lang and Li? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/2 "2006-07-23T17:26:41Z")
I could tell you, but then it would not be the true Tao. ---
**Author:** ![xiix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/d6d6ee/32.png) [@xiix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xiix)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/3 "2006-07-24T00:40:47Z")
Master Sekiso said, “You are at the top of the 100 foot high pole. How will you make a step further?” Another Zen Master of Ancient Times said, “One who sits on top of the 100 foot pole has not quite attained true enlightenment. Make another step forward from the top of the pole and throw one’s own body into the 100,000 universes.” Mumon’s Comments: Should there be any who is able to step forward from the top of the 100 foot pole and hurl one’s whole body into the entire universe, this person may call oneself a Buddha. Nevertheless, how can one step forward from the top of the 100 foot pole? Know thyself! ``` Should one be content and settle on top of the 100,000 foot pole, One will harm the third eye, And will even misread the marks on the scale. Should one throw oneself and be able to renounce one's life, Like one blind person leading all other blind persons, One will be in absolute freedom (unattached from the eyes). ``` [http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/mumonkan.html](http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/mumonkan.html) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/4 "2006-07-24T01:34:07Z")
The version given [here](http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/eric.boix/Koan/Shoyoroku/79_Chosa_takes_a_step.txt) has “Mountains of Ro; water of Rei.” and comments that they are provinces in old China. Take them as place names and nothing more. Just go ahead and step off the pole. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/5 "2006-07-24T01:43:20Z")
[From “Mystery Men”](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes) > [@](#): > > Mr. Furious: Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a little bit formulaic? “If you want to push something down, you have to pull it up. If you want to go left, you have to go right.” It’s… > > The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage… > > Mr. Furious: …your rage will become your master? That’s what you were going to say. Right? Right? > > The Sphinx: Not necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/6 "2006-07-24T03:36:33Z")
Mu. ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/7 "2006-07-24T07:41:19Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Well, not necessarily the whole koan, since that ruins the whole point of contemplating a koan. But some words I just don’t know: What the heck are **“Mountains of Lang, rivers of Li”**? Who or what are Lang and Li? [/QUOTE] Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/8 "2006-07-24T09:41:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mathochist] Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra [/QUOTE] Kalimash at Baha, Temba, his arms wide, Sokath, his eyes uncovered, Khidir beneath Momouteh! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2006, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/9 "2006-07-24T10:52:42Z")
Why step forward? Get another pole and use them as stilts. In other words, one does not have to destroy themselves to gain enlightment. The truly enlightened man is more himself than ever. It is as Pooh said “Mmm. Honey.” ---
**Author:** ![Timothy\_Campbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Timothy\_Campbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timothy_Campbell)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/10 "2012-09-27T19:39:27Z")
This thread isn’t very busy. Well, I’m not very busy just now but this koan did suddenly pop into my mind two days ago, so I’m going to write some comments about it and see what happens. First off, let me say that most of the replies I’ve seen here remind me of the kinds of replies I see in most online discussions of Zen: they are formulaic. One fellow responds with only the word “Mu.” I assume he’s referencing the koan “Joshu’s Dog” and if he and I derive the same message from that koan then technically I agree with his answer. But (and this is a big but): I find it highly unlikely that that answer will evoke a change in the original poster, or anybody else who seeks out this thread. I find that a lot of online Buddhists are _very_ good at acting like they’re on the verge of enlightenment. It’s really quite easy to do that; all you have to do is answer every question by lifting one finger. — Okay, here’s what I got about this koan two days ago: the various responses about what you’ll do atop that pole are not important. They are deliberately irrelevant. Now why would that be? Well, what’s that pole? As I see it, it’s like some fabulous attainment, such as, “Look at me! I’m so close to enlightenment! Look how high I’ve risen!” Okay, great story, bro. Now, then … what’s your next step? Oh. Any step at all is going to be, well, like stepping off a 100-foot pole. The mind will protest, “Are you crazy!? You can’t step off a 100-foot pole!” Of _course_ the mind will protest like that. That what it does. One could spend the rest of one’s life atop that pole. Many do. Or one could take a step. But I can’t explain how that would be done. That’d just make the pole a bit taller, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/11 "2012-09-27T19:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Ch’ang-sha said: “Mountains of Lang, rivers of Li.” > > The monk confessed he did not understand. > > Ch’ang-sha tried again: “The four seas and five lakes are all under the reign of the king.” Then let me try it this way; Mountains of Colorado, rivers of Minnesota. ---
**Author:** ![picker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/picker/32/13969_2.png) [@picker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/12 "2012-09-27T19:57:31Z")
Better yet, Mountains of Minnesota, Rivers of Nevada. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/13 "2012-09-27T20:47:22Z")
> [@Timothy\_Campbell](#): > > … > — > > Okay, here’s what I got about this koan two days ago: the various responses about what you’ll do atop that pole are not important. They are deliberately irrelevant. Now why would that be? > > Well, what’s that pole? As I see it, it’s like some fabulous attainment, such as, “Look at me! I’m so close to enlightenment! Look how high I’ve risen!” > > Okay, great story, bro. Now, then … what’s your next step? > > Oh. > > Any step at all is going to be, well, like stepping off a 100-foot pole. The mind will protest, “Are you crazy!? You can’t step off a 100-foot pole!” > > Of _course_ the mind will protest like that. That what it does. > > One could spend the rest of one’s life atop that pole. Many do. Or one could take a step. But I can’t explain how that would be done. That’d just make the pole a bit taller, wouldn’t it? Nice. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/14 "2012-09-27T21:04:36Z")
I spent two years living in a Zen Buddhist monastery and I have to say I like astro’s comment by far the best. Pretty much my favorite line from that underappreciated film. Except without the actual audio it isn’t quite as good. The simple non-satiric, non-I’ll-just-answer-with-another-obfuscation answer is: you are thinking too much. Just let go. Fall into the universe. And yeah, I am not unaware of how difficult and scary that is. ---
**Author:** ![J\_Cubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/15 "2012-09-27T21:36:40Z")
Understanding is a three-edged sword. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/16 "2012-09-28T02:50:53Z")
You think you’re in a high place up on that pole? Remember the mountains of Lang are much higher than you are now. So too are the rivers of Li that flow through their valleys. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/17 "2012-09-28T03:33:05Z")
You got to the top of that pole somehow, didn’t you? Well, however you did that, do it a little bit more. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/18 "2012-09-28T04:30:13Z")
How exactly did a zombie get to the top of a thousand foot pole? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/19 "2012-09-28T05:53:44Z")
Brains. Lots and lots of brains. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704/20 "2012-09-28T06:57:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How exactly did a zombie get to the top of a thousand foot pole? By floating on a river, climbing a mountain, and not being busy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-zen-koan/365704.md?page=2)