# What is the most complex consumer product? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655 "2014-05-04T19:07:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/41 "2014-05-07T23:39:52Z")
Automatic firearms. The number of parts aren’t as much as an automobile but the action and needed precision are greater. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/42 "2014-05-08T00:33:04Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Automatic firearms. The number of parts aren’t as much as an automobile but the action and needed precision are greater. Oh, I don’t think so. The tolerances in an automobile engine are way tighter than a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/43 "2014-05-08T00:35:01Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Automatic firearms. The number of parts aren’t as much as an automobile but the action and needed precision are greater. Another one trick pony. Sewings machines are just as complex. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/44 "2014-05-08T01:10:01Z")
^ Maybe in the number of moving parts but can sewing machines handle 55,000 PSI? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/45 "2014-05-08T01:20:02Z")
It’s gotta be cars. I cannot think of a common consumer product that even begins to approach the complexity of a car. That cars work as well as they do despite most of them being used by people who know almost nothing about how they work is frankly a remarkable achievement of engineering and ingenuity. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/46 "2014-05-08T08:09:54Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > ^ > Maybe in the number of moving parts but can sewing machines handle 55,000 PSI? That doesn’t make it complex, just tough. While automatic weapons are pretty damn cool they just don’t stack up agaist the internal combustion engine for reliability and consistent functionality. My car started in 20 degree below weather last yeat and the will not have issues with running on a 105 degree day this summer if asked to do so. It also plays music and provides climate control while doing so. And with my backup camara I can now effectively run people over in both forward and reverse. Let’s see your automatic weapon do that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/47 "2014-05-08T09:24:17Z")
Although not as popular as the car, the [personal submarine](http://tritonsubs.com/) must be at least/more complex. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/48 "2014-05-08T11:44:24Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > Although not as popular as the car, the [personal submarine](http://tritonsubs.com/) must be at least/more complex. Those are pretry cool but not truely a consumer product. I’d like to have one but I doubt that most people have ever been near one. Sewing machines, automatic weapons and cars yes; but unfortunitly personal subs no. But damn it, now I want one. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/49 "2014-05-08T13:26:20Z")
Cars are complex, but easy to use. Push the start button, put in drive, and press the gas. Outside of replacing consumables, it will run like that for years. A chainsaw (or my dad’s “professional” 2cycle string trimmer), you are fighting with the damn thing practically every time you try to use it. Sewing machines are very touchy over the setup being just right. I threw the alternator belt in my car at the start of a 40 mile drive, and made it all the way home. If anything isn’t exactly the way it’s supposed to be on a sewing machine, you need to get your scissors out to cut away the giant snarl you just created. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/50 "2014-05-08T14:46:28Z")
Si amigo, I guess you are not a sewing machine mechanic. If you go through all the systems on a car, then you can get plenty of complexity and the sewing machine also represents a number of systems and supply chains. Individually any one of these systems has many complex parts. The technology involved in just one micro-processor in either machine is likely much more complex than the rest of the item put together - so it depends upon how for down to component parts you want to go. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/51 "2014-05-08T15:10:35Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Si amigo, I guess you are not a sewing machine mechanic. > > If you go through all the systems on a car, then you can get plenty of complexity and the sewing machine also represents a number of systems and supply chains. Individually any one of these systems has many complex parts. > > The technology involved in just one micro-processor in either machine is likely much more complex than the rest of the item put together - so it depends upon how for down to component parts you want to go. I have worked with people who used to work for Singer and had the discussions with them about how complicated sewing machines are. They are complicated but nothing near as complicated as a car. Part of what makes a product complex the depth of the supply chain and the number of suppliers that support the product. Nothing in consumer products come close to cars in the shear amount of suppliers it takes to support the industry; from raw materials, to design, testing, sales and manufacturing it’s a huge beast. Entire cities and regions rise and fall based upon their automotive supply base. Just ask people from Dayton or Toledo Ohio how they are doing since the vast majority of the production plants shut down and took the supply base down with them. The only industries that really come close to being as complex as automotive (and thus make a complicated product) is the United States military industrial complex. Products like ships, jet aircraft and rockets can be just as complicated and often more so than a car. In fact the automotive industry looks to them for innovation and styling. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/52 "2014-05-08T19:42:17Z")
It might be too specialized for some but a Closed Circuit trimix rebreather can be bought off the shelf, so to speak. Nothing quite like user serviced like recreational life support equipment to make life interesting (or short). ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/53 "2014-05-08T21:56:25Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > It might be too specialized for some but a Closed Circuit trimix rebreather can be bought off the shelf, so to speak. Nothing quite like user serviced like recreational life support equipment to make life interesting (or short). Pretty neat stuff; military science (originally made for navy seals). Daddy like. 🆒 Still it is just applied chemistry to specific problem. But I want one for when I venture out of my private submarine. 🙂 Link: [How does a rebreather work? | HowStuffWorks](http://science.howstuffworks.com/question632.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/54 "2014-05-09T02:28:20Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > I have worked with people who used to work for Singer and had the discussions with them about how complicated sewing machines are. They are complicated but nothing near as complicated as a car. Part of what makes a product complex the depth of the supply chain and the number of suppliers that support the product. Nothing in consumer products come close to cars in the shear amount of suppliers it takes to support the industry; from raw materials, to design, testing, sales and manufacturing it’s a huge beast. Entire cities and regions rise and fall based upon their automotive supply base. Just ask people from Dayton or Toledo Ohio how they are doing since the vast majority of the production plants shut down and took the supply base down with them. > > The only industries that really come close to being as complex as automotive (and thus make a complicated product) is the United States military industrial complex. Products like ships, jet aircraft and rockets can be just as complicated and often more so than a car. In fact the automotive industry looks to them for innovation and styling. What is just as amazing or even more so is to watch all of those parts come together at the car factory. The car maker generates orders for all of the parts need to build all the cars on a particular day about 4 weeks before the build date. The parts are ordered to be delivered on the exact day, at the exact time at the exact delivery dock with all the parts in the exact order that the cars will come down the assembly line. The cars come down the line SUV, small sedan, large sedan, wagon, the robot or the employee turns around and the next part on the rack is the correct part for that car. Every single time. Think for a minute about the amount of computer power and the coordination it takes to make sure this happens 100% of the time. I have been in factories many times and this boggles my mind every single time. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/55 "2014-05-09T03:59:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > …I found to my surprise that hitting the volume control when your text screen is open increases or decrease font size. Wha? You’ve got PC complexity, or more, with a small screen, few buttons, and with a layout that makes hitting the wrong button very easy. If you have lots of apps each of which works differently it is worse. > [@beowulff](#): > > Steve Jobs refused to allow the volume buttons on the iPhone to activate the camera in the photo app. It took several iOS versions before this feature finally made it into the wild - it’s just too useful, and he finally had to back off on his pathological aversion to over-loading UI features (i.e. - having a control be context-dependant). > [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve written code where I had to overload buttons, so I know exactly why they do it. It works if each button is tied to a concept. The further it gets from that concept, the harder it is to use. Volume control for volume - no one has a problem with that. Font size? Maybe. Focus in a camera - pushing it. Z dimension movement in a game - iffier. Using it to move on a menu - no way. > No way around it without building more smarts into an assistant who listens - smaller font size, HAL. Yay! Finally, I now have someplace to post this where it would be good and appreciated (I didn’t want to put it MPSIMS): On many ATMs (by different manufacturers) after it shows your balance following a withdrawal or other transaction the screen tells you: “Press Enter to Exit.” Great words. Neat concept, especially if you leave off the “press.” ETA: Which reminds me that the naming and various software task assignations of the “Enter” key has an interesting history. I think there’s a wiki on it. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/56 "2014-05-09T12:46:19Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > What is just as amazing or even more so is to watch all of those parts come together at the car factory. > The car maker generates orders for all of the parts need to build all the cars on a particular day about 4 weeks before the build date. > The parts are ordered to be delivered on the exact day, at the exact time at the exact delivery dock with all the parts in the exact order that the cars will come down the assembly line. > The cars come down the line SUV, small sedan, large sedan, wagon, the robot or the employee turns around and the next part on the rack is the correct part for that car. Every single time. > Think for a minute about the amount of computer power and the coordination it takes to make sure this happens 100% of the time. > I have been in factories many times and this boggles my mind every single time. Excellent point. When friends and family visit me in Detroit I always make a point of taking them to [the factory tour of the Ford River Rouge Assembly Plant](http://thehenryford.org/rouge/index.aspx?gclid=COOAm4Dunr4CFQIOOgod-HAAQw) to watch F150 trucks being built. Everyone who has been there has left awestruck and with a new found respect of what I do. ``` Myself I like going to the Bowling Green Assembly Plant and [watch Corvettes get built](http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/company_info1.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Oct/1002-bg-tours.html); even though it's always a work thing it doesn't seem like work. :cool: ``` ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/57 "2014-05-09T12:55:41Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Automatic firearms. The number of parts aren’t as much as an automobile but the action and needed precision are greater. As an aside, I have performed quality audits at a factory that makes high quality automatic weapons (and many of the factories that supply them with parts.) The precision required is very high indeed, but it is not extraordinary by any stretch of the imagination. The tolerances involved are normal for precision machining. A lot of products are made to similar standards, and I would agree that car engine parts are at least as precise. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/58 "2014-05-11T08:28:52Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Yay! Finally, I now have someplace to post this where it would be good and appreciated (I didn’t want to put it MPSIMS): > > On many ATMs (by different manufacturers) after it shows your balance following a withdrawal or other transaction the screen tells you: “Press Enter to Exit.” > > Great words. Neat concept, especially if you leave off the “press.” > ETA: Which reminds me that the naming and various software task assignations of the “Enter” key has an interesting history. I think there’s a wiki on it. What’s really weird is that they usually have touch screens or other buttons that would make more sense to use. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/59 "2014-05-11T11:33:39Z")
High end bicycles with the systems for the brakes, gears, pedals and such can be very complicated. And guys who race them have them tuned pretty highly. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655/60 "2014-05-11T14:29:06Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > Not too long ago the VCR would be on this list. And before that the remote control. How far humanity has progressed! Hardly. All it proves is that the vast majority of people are not intelligent enough to RTFM. After about 1984 or so, VCRs just haven’t been that complicated, and the majority of people you saw whose VCRs blinked “12:00” were some combination of lazy, ignorant or stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-complex-consumer-product/687655.md?page=4)