# What is the most defendable American city? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 28, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887 "2011-02-28T06:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/21 "2011-02-28T16:45:01Z")
denver. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/22 "2011-02-28T16:45:41Z")
I specified just infantry because I figured that air support would make things too lopsided for them, and where would you hide planes in a city? We’ll say…500 troops for you, 1,000 for them? And for the purposes of this question (which it occurs to me now may not fit here as well as I thought) the Canadian and Mexican borders are held. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/23 "2011-02-28T16:46:48Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > How about New Orleans? The only two ways in or out are both bridges. Almost all the ways in/out do involve bridges at various points, but there are many more than two ways. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/24 "2011-02-28T16:52:31Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > How about New Orleans? The only two ways in or out are both bridges. If the bad guys have a hurricane making machine, you’d be in trouble though. A couple of RPGs on the levees and buh-bye New Orelans. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/25 "2011-02-28T17:17:25Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > Ummm, I think that “song” link is wrong. > > Perhaps you’re thinking of [this song](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star_Spangled_Banner), if so, prepare to have ignorance fought. > > That actually wasn’t written as a song, it was written as a poem. It wasn’t until it was published that the author’s brother in law noticed that it could be sung to the tune of an English drinking song. The author of the poem never meant for it to become a song, much less a national anthem. > > (And (keeping in mind I am Canadian) the “song” is best sung drunk (remember, it was a drinking song before the poem was set to it?), some parts are difficult for mere mortals to sing, so I wouldn’t call it “pretty decent”, but this is just my Canadian humble opinion.) Link was wrong, yeah: supposed to be [this one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Mchenry#Star_Spangled_Banner). And I don’t know whose ignorance you’re fighting, but _of course_ I know it was written as a poem first. Nevertheless, we _did_ end up with a song out of the event, as I said. I can’t defend the music it was set to, though. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/26 "2011-02-28T17:34:11Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > (And (keeping in mind I am Canadian) the “song” is best sung drunk (remember, it was a drinking song before the poem was set to it?), some parts are difficult for mere mortals to sing, so I wouldn’t call it “pretty decent”, but this is just my Canadian humble opinion.) The poetic part is all right, but there’s nothing decent about a tune that 9 out of 10 people can’t sing, drunk _or_ sober. When you’re sober you know you can’t sing it, when you’re drunk you only think you can. Even the classically trained and indefatigueable Mike Rowe can’t quite make it…[notice how he goes sharp on the lowest notes.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTRJ2MeSG2Q&feature=autoplay&list=QL&index=1&playnext=2) I googled the song to find out what in heck _anacreon_ meant. Apparently during it’s days as the Anacreon Society’s theme the song was used as a test of sobriety. If a person could sing it, he wasn’t drunk enough. **from Wikipedia** > [@](#): > > The chorus certainly suggests Bacchanalia with its lyrics “And long may the sons of Anacreon intwine the myrtle of Venus with Bacchus’ vine.” The song was commonly used as a sobriety test: If you could sing a stanza of the notoriously difficult melody and stay on key, you were sober enough for another round. SS ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/27 "2011-02-28T17:46:37Z")
I vote for KC. Look how much territory you have to conquer to get there. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/28 "2011-02-28T18:05:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There are certain sections of New York, **Love Rhombus** , that I wouldn’t advise you to try to invade. I’m thinking that Manhattan would be very defensible. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/29 "2011-02-28T18:14:00Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m thinking that Manhattan would be very defensible. When the enemy lays out their cannon and mortar positions in Newark, Elizabeth, Staten Island, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, you’re surrounded. Literally. Bang bang bye bye Manhattan. Er, wait. Are light and medium artillery permitted? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/30 "2011-02-28T18:21:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m thinking that Manhattan would be very defensible. Despite the fact that it has/had forts all over the place, Manhattan has never been successfully defended against an attack from the sea. The British took it from the Dutch by a display of naval force against which their one fort did no good. The British took it away from the American Revolutionaries by an overwhelming naval force. The historical lesson is that you can hold Manhattan if you control the sea as well; if not, you’ll lose it. And if you don’t have total control of the water you’re vulnerable. I could easily see a mobile force of, say rubber rafts attacking Manhattan from Brooklyn unless you’ve got a LOT of ships in the East River. And there certainly aren’t enough fortifications along that side of the island to hold off anyone trying to establish a beachhead. YMMV, depending on how you visualize the situation and allowable forces, but a relatively small but well-equipped force could easily invade manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/31 "2011-02-28T18:51:58Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Even the classically trained and indefatigueable Mike Rowe can’t quite make it Had no idea Mike was classically trained and a great singer! > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > I googled the song to find out what in heck _anacreon_ meant. Apparently during it’s days as the Anacreon Society’s theme the song was used as a test of sobriety. If a person could sing it, he wasn’t drunk enough. Heh, being a comedian and anthematologist I know plenty of funny stories about national anthems (like the one that was written by a poet whose girlfriend trapped him in a room of her parents’ house (lured him in there with promises of sex) and refused to let him out until he entered the lyric contest for the national anthem; or the national anthem that was made up on the spot when the government official didn’t want to appear backwards by answering “we don’t have one” to the visiting British delegation’s request for their anthem so they can play it), I’ll add that one to my repertoire. > [@Sailboat](#): > > And I don’t know whose ignorance you’re fighting, but _of course_ I know it was written as a poem first. Nevertheless, we _did_ end up with a song out of the event, as I said. I underestimate the Dope sometimes, I often have to fight that ignorance outside the Dope, I forget that Dopers are smarter than the av-er-age bear. Thanks for reminding me. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/32 "2011-02-28T18:56:43Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > …And if you don’t have total control of the water you’re vulnerable. I could easily see a mobile force of, say rubber rafts attacking Manhattan from Brooklyn unless you’ve got a LOT of ships in the East River. And there certainly aren’t enough fortifications along that side of the island to hold off anyone trying to establish a beachhead… U.S. Government attempts to isolate and quarantine Manhattan failed miserably, but not for lack of trying, in both Stephen King’s _The Stand_ and the Will Smith remake of _I Am Legend._ ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/33 "2011-02-28T18:56:56Z")
I’d think somewhere like San Francisco would be the best bet. Rough terrain and a peninsula would combine to give the defenders a real advantage. Of course, they might have to cede parts of the city to make the best defensive lines, which is true in most places. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/34 "2011-02-28T19:11:45Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > Oh, that’ll work, all right–until the Saskatchewanians invade. North Dakota is where they go to get warm! Quite literally. You know to hang your head in shame when Minot takes out tourism billboard ads to get you to come there. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/35 "2011-02-28T19:20:00Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > YMMV, depending on how you visualize the situation and allowable forces, but a relatively small but well-equipped force could easily invade manhattan. I’m thinking infantry only. Bring in artillery and a navy and things would go very differently. Give the invading army some credit cards and they’ll be too busy shopping to fight. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/36 "2011-02-28T19:28:29Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m thinking infantry only. Bring in artillery and a navy and things would go very differently. > > Give the invading army some credit cards and they’ll be too busy shopping to fight. Maybe we should define this a little better. Are we talking modern-day infantry formations (companies, battalions, brigades, divisions)? or are we talking a bunch of guys with rifles, pistols, grenades and anti-tank weapons? The reason I ask is because most infantry formations big enough to take a city (brigade/division) have integral artillery and sometimes even helicopter assets. Their subordinate units usually have mortars as well- for example, infantry companies have 60mm mortars. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/37 "2011-02-28T19:49:49Z")
But hasn’t all of the US, by definition, fell to _someone_ at some point in time (the English, the Spanish, the French, or the US itself)? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/38 "2011-02-28T20:12:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Maybe we should define this a little better. Are we talking modern-day infantry formations (companies, battalions, brigades, divisions)? or are we talking a bunch of guys with rifles, pistols, grenades and anti-tank weapons? I was thinking swords and shields. By redefining the conditions, the nature of the game changes considerably. We don’t really have to imagine what a modern day attack on Manhattan would look like. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/39 "2011-02-28T20:13:03Z")
Are we talking about the best natural defenses, really? Because there you have to knock out most high-population cities and concentrate on small/medium populations. I’m trying to come up with any US city which could survive 2-3 weeks without outside water piping in, and I just can’t find a single one. It’s also important to note that most areas of high natural defense already have military fortifications. \hijack in the process I came across this: [http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/brady-photos/images/fredericksburg-battery.gif](http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/brady-photos/images/fredericksburg-battery.gif) Is that guy riding an elephant? /hijack ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887/40 "2011-02-28T20:36:28Z")
There’s no way you and you can keep them out of a city. People had a hard time keeping invaders out of fortified cities throughout history, and most modern cities aren’t surrounded by walls. They can have 750 guys start a firefight in one area that you will be forced to throw your weight into then have 250 guys walk around the whole city under the cover of night and swim in from the one place you thought impossible. You just can’t cover 360 degrees around a city 24/7. You want to let them in, then fight a guerrilla warfare in the city until they’re all dead or have had enough. I’d pick New York because it’s big and you could move underground. There’s nearly infinite possibilities for ruining their day inside a city like that, but trying to keep them out of the city will have you running around frantically just trying to survive a war of attrition. Let them in and make them run around trying to survive while inside. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-defendable-american-city/572887.md?page=3)