# What is the most difficult modern English book to understand? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745 "2012-07-19T17:12:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/21 "2012-07-19T22:40:31Z")
I agree with the _Finnegan’s Wake_ nomination. A friend of mine who majored in English confessed to me once that it’s the only assigned novel he never finished, and he was a very conscientious student. I’ve never even tried after flicking through the first few pages. I’ve read _The Glass Bead Game_ and _Gravity’s Rainbow_ and to my mind while Hesse is a bit tedious the sheer mind fuck of Pynchon is harder to get through. I swear I was in a bit of an altered state for a good week or two after finishing _Gravity’s Rainbow_. As for the non-fiction I’d argue that Russell and Whitehead’s Principia isn’t actually in English. I can’t decide what the most difficult non-fiction book I’ve encountered is though. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/22 "2012-07-19T22:40:49Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > “The Glass Bead Game”, by Hermann Hesse. > > Yeah, yeah, it won the Nobel Prize, it was still a slog to get through, and I adored some of his other books! To be fair, maybe _Das Glasperlenspiel_ reads better and it’s all the translator’s fault. But knowing German, probably not. > [@smsaks2000](#): > > Gravity’s Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon. Brutal… It didn’t have more pages than some other books I read, nor more chapters. But it is the longest book I’ve ever read. Took me a good part of a year, on and off. There’s a _Song of Ice and Fire_-sized cast and the language itself isn’t too bad or esoteric, but it’s one of those books that requires a ledger to figure out what is going on (there’s a website for that, too). I first checked it out of a library, read a few pages, and realized that there would be no way I could finish in time without buying it. I also read _V._, which was difficult too but not nearly as much. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/23 "2012-07-19T22:47:02Z")
> [@Zjestika](#): > > [Riddley Walker](http://www.amazon.com/Riddley-Walker-Expanded-Edition-Hoban/dp/0253212340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342720963&sr=8-1&keywords=riddly+walker) is written in, uh, post-apocalyptic dialect, I guess? Phonetically might be a better way to describe it. I’ve tried to read it several times and when I put it down I don’t pick it back up. It’s really challenging. This. I’ve been halfway through it for two years. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/24 "2012-07-19T22:55:57Z")
If my students are any indication, it would be either the _MLA Handbook_ or the general rules of grammar and style manual they are required to use for their freshman gut English class. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/25 "2012-07-20T00:27:29Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Who can fail to be moved by [this passage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Principia_Mathematica_theorem_54-43.png) from page 362 of volume 1? You just know they were meant to be together and when they finally make it through all the obstacles along the way … call me sentimental but I tear up every time I see that little = sign and know they’ve finally joined together. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/26 "2012-07-20T00:47:47Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Who can fail to be moved by [this passage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Principia_Mathematica_theorem_54-43.png) from page 362 of volume 1? I thought the full phrase included all 362 pages. I remember a talking head in a documentary on mathematics saying something that I thought implied that. (The first half or more of the documentary got taped over (probably by an episode of Doctor Who (old version)), so I don’t remember the title.) > [@lisiate](#): > > . . . As for the non-fiction I’d argue that Russell and Whitehead’s Principia isn’t actually in English. . . . . I’d be willing to stipulate that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/27 "2012-07-20T00:56:00Z")
For anyone who doubts Finnegan’s Wake’s claim to the title: > [@](#): > > So vi et! we responded. Song! Shaun, song! Have mood! Hold forth! > > I apologuise, Shaun began, but I would rather spinooze you one from the grimm gests of Jacko and Esaup, fable one, feeble too. Let us here consider the casus, my dear little cousis (husstenhasstencaffincoffintussemtossemdamandamnacosaghcusaghhobixhatouxpeswchbechoscashlcarcarcaract) of the Ondt and the Gracehoper. > > The Gracehoper was always jigging ajog, hoppy on akkant of his joyicity, (he had a partner pair of findlestilts to supplant him), or, if not, he was always making ungraceful overtures to Floh and Luse and Bienie and Vespatilla to play pupa-pupa and pulicy-pulicy and langtennas and pushpygyddyum and to commence insects with him, there mouthparts to his orefice and his gambills to there airy processes, even if only in chaste, ameng the everlistings, behold a waspering pot. He would of curse melissciously, by his fore feelhers, flexors, contractors, depressors and extensors, lamely, harry me, marry me, bury me, bind me, till she was puce for shame and allso fourmish her in Spinner’s housery at the earthsbest schoppinhour so summery as his cottage, which was cald fourmillierly Tingsomingenting, groped up. Or, if he was always striking up funny unereels with Besterfarther Zeuts, the Aged One, With all his wigeared corollas, albedinous and oldbuoyant, inscythe his elytrical wormcasket and Dehlia and Peonia, his druping nymphs, bewheedling him, compound eyes on hornitosehead, and Auld Letty Plussiboots to scratch his cacumen and cackle his tramsitus, diva deborah (seven bolls of sapo, a lick of lime, two spurts of fussfor, threefurts of sulph, a shake o’shouker, doze grains of migniss and a mesfull of midcap pitchies. The whool of the whaal in the wheel of the whorl of the Boubou from Bourneum has thus come to taon!), and with tambarins and cantoridettes soturning around his eggshill rockcoach their dance McCaper in retrophoebia, beck from bulk, like fantastic disossed and jenny aprils, to the ra, the ra, the ra, the ra, langsome heels and langsome toesis, attended to by a mutter and doffer duffmatt baxingmotch and a myrmidins of pszozlers pszinging Satyr’s Caudledayed Nice and Hombly, Dombly Sod We Awhile but Ho, Time Timeagen, Wake! For if sciencium (what’s what) can mute uns nought, 'a thought, abought the Great Sommboddy within the Omniboss, perhops an artsaccord (hoot’s hoot) might sing ums tumtim abutt the Little Newbuddies that ring his panch. A high old tide for the barheated publics and the whole day as gratiis! Fudder and lighting for ally looty, any filly in a fog, for O’Cronione lags acrumbling in his sands but his sunsunsuns still tumble on. Erething above ground, as his Book of Breathings bed him, so as everwhy, sham or shunner, zeemliangly to kick time. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/28 "2012-07-20T00:56:06Z")
_Sartor Resartus_ by Thomas Carlyle was a real hoot, let me tell you. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/29 "2012-07-20T02:10:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > For anyone who doubts Finnegan’s Wake’s claim to the title: > > > [@](#): > > > > So vi et! we responded. Song! Shaun, song! Have mood! Hold forth! > > > > I apologuise, Shaun began, but I would rather spinooze you one from the grimm gests of Jacko and Esaup, fable one, feeble too. Let us here consider the casus, my dear little cousis (husstenhasstencaffincoffintussemtossemdamandamnacosaghcusaghhobixhatouxpeswchbechoscashlcarcarcarac t) of the Ondt and the Gracehoper. > > > > The Gracehoper was always jigging ajog, hoppy on akkant of his joyicity, (he had a partner pair of findlestilts to supplant him), or, if not, he was always making ungraceful overtures to Floh and Luse and Bienie and Vespatilla to play pupa-pupa and pulicy-pulicy and langtennas and pushpygyddyum and to commence insects with him, there mouthparts to his orefice and his gambills to there airy processes, even if only in chaste, ameng the everlistings, behold a waspering pot. He would of curse melissciously, by his fore feelhers, flexors, contractors, depressors and extensors, lamely, harry me, marry me, bury me, bind me, till she was puce for shame and allso fourmish her in Spinner’s housery at the earthsbest schoppinhour so summery as his cottage, which was cald fourmillierly Tingsomingenting, groped up. Or, if he was always striking up funny unereels with Besterfarther Zeuts, the Aged One, With all his wigeared corollas, albedinous and oldbuoyant, inscythe his elytrical wormcasket and Dehlia and Peonia, his druping nymphs, bewheedling him, compound eyes on hornitosehead, and Auld Letty Plussiboots to scratch his cacumen and cackle his tramsitus, diva deborah (seven bolls of sapo, a lick of lime, two spurts of fussfor, threefurts of sulph, a shake o’shouker, doze grains of migniss and a mesfull of midcap pitchies. The whool of the whaal in the wheel of the whorl of the Boubou from Bourneum has thus come to taon!), and with tambarins and cantoridettes soturning around his eggshill rockcoach their dance McCaper in retrophoebia, beck from bulk, like fantastic disossed and jenny aprils, to the ra, the ra, the ra, the ra, langsome heels and langsome toesis, attended to by a mutter and doffer duffmatt baxingmotch and a myrmidins of pszozlers pszinging Satyr’s Caudledayed Nice and Hombly, Dombly Sod We Awhile but Ho, Time Timeagen, Wake! For if sciencium (what’s what) can mute uns nought, 'a thought, abought the Great Sommboddy within the Omniboss, perhops an artsaccord (hoot’s hoot) might sing ums tumtim abutt the Little Newbuddies that ring his panch. A high old tide for the barheated publics and the whole day as gratiis! Fudder and lighting for ally looty, any filly in a fog, for O’Cronione lags acrumbling in his sands but his sunsunsuns still tumble on. Erething above ground, as his Book of Breathings bed him, so as everwhy, sham or shunner, zeemliangly to kick time. Apropos of nothing… this reminds me of when I was hunkered down in the library stacks one day trying to skim a musicology article in Dutch about a Renaissance era Flemish organist, knowing English and German, and getting _this close_ to understanding it, but not quite because I was missing a few words here and there of technical language. Only Joyce has puns too and general silliness. But it helps to read it out loud, I find. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/30 "2012-07-20T03:25:26Z")
There are any number of textbooks most here would have absolutely no purchase on were they to assay them because they assume you have technical knowledge most here do not have. It is frustrating unto madness to be attempting to read a math book and find notation you don’t know that the author is not going to explain. It’s completely opaque in a way not even _Finnegans Wake_ can match. You might as well try to scramble up a smooth glass window. However, once you have the requisite background, most mathematical books aren’t difficult to read; they require _care_, _attention_, and _time_, but they’re not insurmountable. If you dismiss mathematics, Hegel has a terrible reputation of having written some real slogs. How much of this is due to sub-par translations from the German and how much is due to Hegel I don’t know; Boltzmann seemed to think Hegel’s work was inherently muddy, and he presumably read it in the original. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/31 "2012-07-20T04:47:05Z")
Moving over to Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/32 "2012-07-20T05:28:08Z")
Well, I guess the thread has been won but still I’ll add: [Pygmy](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4601396-pygmy) by Chuck Palahniuk [Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance](http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0060589469) by Robt. Pirsig > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Who can fail to be moved by [this passage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Principia_Mathematica_theorem_54-43.png) from page 362 of volume 1? ::swoon:: ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/33 "2012-07-20T05:34:59Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Well, I guess the thread has been won but still I’ll add: > [Pygmy](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4601396-pygmy) > by Chuck Palahniuk Aww…I thought I was gonna make it to the end of the thread and have something to contribute, but you beat me to it! 😛 Actually, though, I found _Pygmy_ to be easier than I expected to read once I got the hang of the language. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/34 "2012-07-20T06:08:05Z")
I’ve read _Gravity’s Rainbow_ more than seven times. I lost count after that. I’m not sure if I’m proud or ashamed, but don’t ask me what it’s about. Still, it’s my favorite modern novel. I was a (sexual) virgin the first time. Warped me for life, it did. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/35 "2012-07-20T06:31:26Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’ve read _The Glass Bead Game_ and _Gravity’s Rainbow_ and to my mind while Hesse is a bit tedious the sheer mind fuck of Pynchon is harder to get through. I swear I was in a bit of an altered state for a good week or two after finishing _Gravity’s Rainbow_. If books requiring or causing altered states count, then I nominate _The Illuminatus Trillogy_. I managed to slog through it without the aid of pot or hallucinogenics (thanks, or maybe not, to being pretty much locked in by snow with an extremely slow and highly filtered internet connection for several weeks), but the book itself should probably be handled only under controlled conditions. I’m afraid to approach _Finnegan’s Wake_… I’m wondering whether it is the book that inspired Miguel Delibes’ opera prima, the much-lauded and absolutely horrible _Five Hours with Mario_ (and I love every single other one of his books). Having now read **Nemo** ’s contribution, ok, it was not what inspired Delibes, but - bloody hell! That’s legal to own, distribute and sell? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/36 "2012-07-20T08:36:36Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > I’ve read _Gravity’s Rainbow_ more than seven times. I lost count after that. I’m not sure if I’m proud or ashamed, but don’t ask me what it’s about. Still, it’s my favorite modern novel. > > I was a (sexual) virgin the first time. Warped me for life, it did. It was YOU who caused all those disasters in England soon after you visited!? Since we’re talking about _Finnegans Wake_, and it’s now in CS, I will take the time to mention [_Sleepytime Gorilla Museum’s_ “Headless Corpses Reenactment”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELyco68w5ks), which consists of lyrics taken from the novel to scary effect. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/37 "2012-07-20T10:07:17Z")
Not too long ago, I was considering whether I should give Roger Penrose’s [The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe](http://www.amazon.com/Road-Reality-Complete-Guide-Universe/dp/0679776311/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342778484&sr=1-1&keywords=roger+penrose) a shot. Then, I read some of its reviews (many of which were by people with rather advanced training in math and physics). “On second thought, maybe not”. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/38 "2012-07-20T10:18:14Z")
The hardest novels are those that mix a tough prose style with challenging themes and ideas. Books like _Ulysses_ and _The sound and the fury_ are chewy as hell in places, but they’re thematically pretty simple. Ulysses is at heart just a book about people. Someone like Pynchon is on another level - you’ve got the same dense prose that can be a real battle, but used to describe fantastical theories of world governance and order. I think _Gravity’s Rainbow_ benefits from being so dazzling that it keeps the pages turning - something like _Mason and Dixon_ is more subtle and, to be honest, a real ballache. _Finnegan’s Wake_ does sort of stand alone - although I await the, er, pleasure of reading it. There must be a few of these type of books self-published by nobodies - can’t be too many examples where a revered author just decides to take things to their logical conclusion and dish up total impenetrability. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/39 "2012-07-20T11:45:31Z")
**Bob Dylan** ’s _Tarantula_ was pretty heavy going - all bizarre imagery and nonsense! Some quite memorable but it was almost like reading pages of random words at times… (I read it back in the 70s so I might be mis-remembering and doing it an injustice, but I don’t think so!) ---
**Author:** ![DZedNConfused](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dzednconfused/32/15991_2.png) [@DZedNConfused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DZedNConfused)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745/40 "2012-07-20T14:28:54Z")
The Universe in A Nutshell by Stephen Hawking went so far over my head the trees swayed. I liked it just didn’t understand it… I’ve tried twice on Ancient Evenings, but I suspect that’s more a failing of mine than Mailer’s… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-difficult-modern-english-book-to-understand/628745.md?page=3)