# What is the most elaborate conspiracy ever actually discovered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314 "2012-02-19T08:06:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/41 "2012-02-19T21:29:54Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I disagree, the massive rubber stamp from Congress was key to any of it working. There had actually been lots of news articles and leaked evidence suggesting Saddam might not have WMD, not to mention the head UN inspector came out and publicly asserted there was no reason to invade, that Iraq did not have WMD and etc. > > The closest we ever came to having a real public debate about the intelligence evidence was when Colin Powell gave his presentation to the UN. Bush _did not_ lay out very specific evidence to the American people, it was vague and would have been easily contested by a Congress who wanted to do so–keep in mind Congress can hold hearings on whatever it wants and can even subpoena intelligence reports if they really want (this might result in executive privilege being asserted or etc, though.) Congress did not do any of this. There was no “case” made before Congress, there was a State of the Union address condemning Iraq for a few different things and a presentation before the UN on WMD, but since there was never any real formal “WMD proof exposition” before Congress, and Congress was voting for the AUMF _anyway_ any “conspiracy” cannot be said to have been what allowed the war. > > I’ve never fully understood why Americans always give Congress a pass for letting the President do whatever they want. Sure, you can condemn the President for doing things you disagree with–and should, but checks and balances exist for a reason. Most of the majorly objectionable things done by Presidents are approved by Congress. I remember during the Vietnam War the Presidency was the focus of most of the ire, which might be appropriate. But I never understood why Congress always gets off scot free, they can stop wars from happening and they can end wars that are currently going on–they just never choose to do so. The Congressional stamp only came down with such authority because the stampers believed there was a actual, dire threat to the US at hand. There are lots of effective ways to punish other governments without a full scale invasion by the US military. The overriding rationale presented for the necessity to go in and remove Saddam was to remove the threat of the WMDs. Without the threat of potential imminent nuclear engagement with Iraq being presented as a virtual fact there would have been many other options on the table short of invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/42 "2012-02-19T22:03:17Z")
Yes, **Astro** , and that was my original point. The Second Iraq war was driven by ill-consider intelligence and political power-mongering. I consider the entire lead-up to the invasion to be driven by Cheney and Bush and darn the data. Bush wanted to avenge his father, and Cheney needed to make more money. How, the heck could we have voted for these guys? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/43 "2012-02-19T22:05:14Z")
[Operation Snow White](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White) has got to be up there on the list of conspiracies. > [@](#): > > This project included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members, in more than 30 countries; the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history with up to 5,000 covert agents. ---
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/44 "2012-02-19T22:11:42Z")
I don’t really believe that the push to war in Iraq meets the definition of conspiracy–although criminal acts were committed along the way. As to some of the points being discussed here: 1. People of good faith–Democrats included–thought there was a case for war. That was what they’d been shown–not the massive ambiguity and counterevidence. 2. Many Democrats and Republicans were skeptical of the case, but chose to give teh Bush/Cheney admin the benefit of the doubt. 3. Some of the members of Congress who’d seen the most evidence–members of the intelligence committees, the Gang of 8–were the most skeptical, but could not fully engage in public debate because they were sworn to secrecy about what they’d been shown. 4. Democrats were appropriately scared of being smeared as “soft” by the Republicans–see the Republican ads in the re-election campaign of Max Cleland. 5. 9/11 was less than a year and a half in the rearview mirror. People were scared, including Congress. Not to defend Congress too much, it’s an institution that is always willing to shirk its responsibilities. But it’s far too simple to say that Congress could have stopped the Iraq war. ---
**Author:** ![aaaa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@aaaa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaaa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/45 "2012-02-19T23:05:18Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > That landing a faked manned mission on the moon has to be up there. > > No… sorry just kidding. > Please don’t pummel with rhetoric and blunt objects, > > No, maybe the WMD silliness in Iraq. > I believed it and, Jean, my wife, did as well. > In fact a lot of people believed it. > And it was a deliberately crafted hoax. > > We were all convinced that they had chemical weapons hidden there, > Maybe even biological or nuclear ones as well. > > After all, they had gassed the Kurds. > And we SOLD the regime chemical weapons back when they were fighting Iran. > > But when we finally got there… guess what? > No weapons of mass destruction. > Not even weapons of moderate destruction. > > Tanks, howitzers, artillery, infantry. > All of which we destroyed in the first two weeks of the Second Iraq War. > > That sounds pretty elaborate to me. They only had no nuclear weapons. This is from the 90s but it is still after the Gulf War: > **[Biological Weapons Program - Iraq Special Weapons](https://nuke.fas.org/guide/iraq/bw/program.htm)** > **[Chemical Weapons - Iraq Special Weapons](https://nuke.fas.org/guide/iraq/cw/unscom.htm)** This is from 2004: [http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004\_hr/100604duelfer.pdf](http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2004_hr/100604duelfer.pdf) (PDF) There is no doubt they had WMDs at one time and even up to and after invasion in 2003. The only debate is if they had enough for it to be significant. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/46 "2012-02-19T23:38:49Z")
The poster child for an elaborate true conspiracy is the Dreyfus Affair. You had plotters in the French military framing an innocent man, and later the French military establishment covering up the crime and enabling the guilty to go unpunished. Add to that a determined effort by conspiracy theorists and journalists to uncover the truth and succeeding. If you improperly define any secret government/military operation as a “conspiracy”, then the Normandy Invasion probably beats anything previously posted here. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/47 "2012-02-19T23:39:38Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The Congressional stamp only came down with such authority because the stampers believed there was a actual, dire threat to the US at hand. There are lots of effective ways to punish other governments without a full scale invasion by the US military. The overriding rationale presented for the necessity to go in and remove Saddam was to remove the threat of the WMDs. Without the threat of potential imminent nuclear engagement with Iraq being presented as a virtual fact there would have been many other options on the table short of invasion. This is a GD discussion at this point so out of respect for GQ I won’t argue this (importance of WMD in getting AUMF passed) any further in this thread. From a factual perspective though, I think it would be hard to call an administration cherry picking evidence to be akin to a conspiracy. Some definition of a conspiracy might be useful in general, really. The common definition is (as Loach posted) two or more people plotting to commit a crime. Technically I don’t think the administration has a legal “full disclosure of all intelligence we receive” requirement, even when presenting information to congress. The closest Bush administration officials may have come to committing a crime in regard to WMD is if someone testified before Congress something that the individual knew to be false (perjury before Congress.) I’m not sure there is any clear cut evidence that actually happened, at least not sufficient to convict someone of perjury. There is a difference between saying something you know is false and saying something that some intelligence supports while other intelligence refutes. Especially since any trial would require a jury to examine the credibility of both sets of intelligence, it’s an iffy area because you can always make the argument you think one piece of intelligence is better than another and it is unlikely we’re going to start sending people to prison for making decisions between multiple sources of intelligence. Finally, even if we could establish perjury had happened I don’t know that it was planned conspiracy. I think in the run up to the Iraq war there were several different bases of power in the executive that all wanted war for different reasons, along with lots of groupthink and preconceptions about what was true and a desire to only look at evidence that confirmed those preconceptions. That sounds shitty government but it’s not the same thing as a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/48 "2012-02-20T01:19:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is a GD discussion at this point so out of respect for GQ I won’t argue this (importance of WMD in getting AUMF passed) any further in this thread. > > From a factual perspective though, I think it would be hard to call an administration cherry picking evidence to be akin to a conspiracy. Some definition of a conspiracy might be useful in general, really. > > The common definition is (as Loach posted) two or more people plotting to commit a crime. Technically I don’t think the administration has a legal “full disclosure of all intelligence we receive” requirement, even when presenting information to congress. The closest Bush administration officials may have come to committing a crime in regard to WMD is if someone testified before Congress something that the individual knew to be false (perjury before Congress.) I’m not sure there is any clear cut evidence that actually happened, at least not sufficient to convict someone of perjury. There is a difference between saying something you know is false and saying something that some intelligence supports while other intelligence refutes. Especially since any trial would require a jury to examine the credibility of both sets of intelligence, it’s an iffy area because you can always make the argument you think one piece of intelligence is better than another and it is unlikely we’re going to start sending people to prison for making decisions between multiple sources of intelligence. Finally, even if we could establish perjury had happened I don’t know that it was planned conspiracy. I think in the run up to the Iraq war there were several different bases of power in the executive that all wanted war for different reasons, along with lots of groupthink and preconceptions about what was true and a desire to only look at evidence that confirmed those preconceptions. That sounds shitty government but it’s not the same thing as a conspiracy. I don’t disagree. My original post in this thread also questioned whether this confluence of interests really qualified as a 'conspiracy". Short of Chalabi and his sponsored defectors telling outright lies, most other participants in the scrum thought they were doing the right thing. I am convinced that Cheney, to this day, thinks he saved the western world by his efforts to push the invasion of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/49 "2012-02-20T01:40:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This is a GD discussion at this point so out of respect for GQ I won’t argue this (importance of WMD in getting AUMF passed) any further in this thread. [Moderating] In order not to derail the broader discussion, I think it would be best to request that that further discussion of the lead-up to the Iraq War and the presence of WMD to a new thread in Great Debates. While noting that it has been nominated as a candidate conspiracy for this thread, it has been discussed at great length elsewhere on the board. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/50 "2012-02-20T06:33:20Z")
> **[Gleiwitz incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident)** > > The Gleiwitz incident (German: Überfall auf den Sender Gleiwitz; Polish: Prowokacja gliwicka) was a false flag attack on the radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz (then Germany and now Gliwice, Poland) staged by Nazi Germany on the night of 31 August 1939. Along with some two dozen similar incidents, the attack was manufactured by Germany as a casus belli to justify the invasion of Poland. Prior to the invasion, Adolf Hitler gave a radio address condemning the acts and announcing German pla... Pretext for Invasion of Poland? As in its not simply a military strategem, but was a political excuse for war based entirely on lies. Otara ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/51 "2012-02-20T06:53:07Z")
[The General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/52 "2012-02-20T14:11:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > [The General Motors Streetcar Conspiracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy) The Perfect Master takes a somewhat different view: [Did General Motors destroy the LA mass transit system? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/551/did-general-motors-destroy-the-la-mass-transit-system) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/53 "2012-02-20T15:35:38Z")
[The Pazzi conspiracy.](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazzi) If not the largest, perhaps the greatest impact in the Renaissance, had it succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/54 "2012-02-20T16:28:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I wouldn’t call the Labon affair an elaborate conspiracy; on the contrary, it was a half-assed, slipshod undertaking that collapsed before it barely started. Its main importance was its political fallout, both domestic and international, and its impact on the Israeli intelligence community. But, but it was the Zionists! And the Jews!! It must be huge. And evil. Of course, issuing of [The Protocols of the Elders of Zion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion) _was_ a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/55 "2012-02-20T17:13:13Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/56 "2012-02-20T19:12:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The Perfect Master takes a somewhat different view: [Did General Motors destroy the LA mass transit system? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/551/did-general-motors-destroy-the-la-mass-transit-system) If you read the wiki article you’ll see there’s a lot of questions about this conspiracy. There’s some evidence of a conspiracy at GM, but it seems more a conspiracy along the lines of Tom Sawyer’s fence. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/57 "2012-02-20T19:41:42Z")
Santa Claus. It involves hundreds of millions of people across several generations. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/58 "2012-02-20T20:00:04Z")
After reading the thread and thinking about it, I agree its got to be the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/59 "2012-02-20T21:40:08Z")
> [@PlainJain](#): > > Watergate has got to be up there. Watergate itself not so much, but often conflated with it are the Pentagon Papers revelations about the true history of US involvement in Vietnam, and the Rockerfeller Commission’s revelations about the illegal activities of the CIA. Americans had always considred themselves the “good guys” of the world, and it was stunning to discover that for twenty years or more the US government had been secretly assassinating leaders, overthrowing democratic governments for flirting with socialism, spying on dissident US citizens, using human guinea pigs in mind-control experiments, and in general being above the rule of law. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314/60 "2012-02-21T00:46:59Z")
Not quite on the scale of the others here, but here’s one I thought would be bigger; Donaghy and the NBA. It seemed there was always a conspiracy about bigger and popular NBA teams getting far in the playoffs. The referees would help out to ensure the NBA and the networks would get higher ratings. It came to a head in the 2002 Lakers-Kings playoff game, where LA had something like 18 more free throws. Then it turns out the conspiracy was TRUE! :eek: A ref did influence games unfairly. This potentially had huge reprecussions for the NBA and sports in general. Yet, the story just went away. The NBA and its fans seemed content it was a lone rogue ref gambling on games. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-elaborate-conspiracy-ever-actually-discovered/613314.md?page=4)