What is the most fundamental contradiction in the Bible?

It could.

Those are really the only two choices? Let me suggest two others. Parts of the bible are true and parts are not. Or, the true nature of reality contains contradictions.

There is a real, and I think unavoidable, philosophical flaw in any argument to reject the bible based on contradictions it contains. The argument contains the following essentials: the bible contains contradictions; since reality does not permit contradictions, the bible cannot accurately describe reality; therefore, the bible ought to be rejected.

This misses two points, one minor and one major. First, there is no automatic reason to suppose that a particular contradictory account is in general less accurate than any non-contradictory account. Contradiction in and of itself is not a cause for rejection. Second, rejection is contingent on reality not allowing a contradiction.

I don’t think that question is yet settled satisfactorily. Relativity tells us that there are no priveleged reference frames. An object can be (for instance) both contracting along its direction of motion and not contracting in that direction. Quantum physics suggests that a particle can both be in a particular position and not be in that same position. Again, I won’t claim that this is the true nature of reality; but the question is certainly not settled. It might be the case that reality is pervasively contradictory.

You cannot compel rejection of the bible, unless you also insist on rejection or non-standard (i.e. kooky) interpretation of the last 100 years of science.

Besides the philosophical fallacy, there are also three particular logical fallacies often committed. Two are avoidable, the third is problematic.

First, there is a misunderstanding of logical conjunction. If the bible is validly interpreted as a conjunction of propositions, each of which has a logical truth value independent of the others (required for the program of rejection by contradiction), then the entire conjunction fails if any of the propositions is shown to be false. If we adopt classical logic, then the law of non-contradiction holds, and a contradiction implies at least one falsehood. Thus, a biblical contradiction causes us to reject the entire bible.

The flaw is in the interpretation of “entire”. We are not logically committed to reject every single thing in the bible. The falsehood of a conjunct does not compel rejection of any other proposition that happens to be related only by the conjunction. That is, if I claim “God exists AND God does not exist AND St. Paul is the capital of Minnesota”, you are not required to reject “St. Paul is the capital of Minnesota”. There is no automatic reason to suppose that falsehood of a proposition pollutes other propositions. The only reason is when, as you’ve done above, you insist that it be the case.

It is quite reasonable to simply accept all the non-contradictory propositions in the bible, and one half of every pair of contradictions. That is still logically valid. In fact, that is exactly (part of) what we do when we say “I don’t accept the bible as entirely literally true”.

Second, there is a misunderstanding of logical implication. If the bible is validly interpreted as drawing conclusions (how we ought to live) based on premises (propositions contained in the bible), and we find a false premise due to a contradiction (or any other reason), then we ought to reject the conclusions.

Logic doesn’t say anything of the sort. If we find a false premise, we are not compelled to accept the conclusions, but there is also no compulsion to reject them. If I claim: “if George was born in Minnesota, then he is a US citizen”, and you demonstrate that George was born in California, you are not required to conclude that he is not a US citizen. There is no logical sense that a contradiction in the bible should cause me to (for instance) stop believing in God, stop praying, or stop attending church.

Finally, and quite damning, are the very consequences of an insistence on non-contradiction. The intuition is that we ought to reject contradictions because they are, in some way, offensive to logic (I have already argued that they are not offensive to the structure of reality). The reason that classical logic requires non-contradiction is due to the (classical) entailment relation, where certain sets of propositions imply other sets of propositions. In this relation, a contradiction implies everything. Thus, if we want to reject anything at all (which we probably can agree on), then we must reject all contradictions.

It is this sense that the bible is a contradictory theory that is supposed to cause us to reject it. To be concrete, suppose we have two statements:

A = “thou shalt not kill”
~A = “whoever strikes someone so that he dies must surely be put to death”

And we claim that one is the logical negation of the other. Then, any theory containing both these statements can be used to derive anything, and must be rejected as a theory.

However, non-contradiction carries with it the law of the excluded middle. In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction and the law of the excluded middle are equivalent: you must either accept both of them or reject both of them. A very weak case can be made for accepting the law of the excluded middle and rejecting non-contradiction. The opposite (accepting non-contradiction, rejecting excluded middle) leads to a contradiction itself, and you cannot both accept non-contradiction and a contradiction. Anyway, insistence on non-contradiction requires insistence on excluded middles.

That is, in the example above, it must be the case that either A or ~A is true. You cannot insist on rejection of the bible on these grounds, without being forced to insist on the validity of exactly half of each pair of contradictory statements in the bible.

And I don’t think you want to do that. You have two choices. You can insist that the two statements above (for instance) are somehow not a pair of a proposition and its negation. That is what we do when we “interpret” the bible. For instance, when we see “thou shall not kill”, followed in the next chapter by a list of times when you should “put [someone] to death”, we should ask if “killing” and “putting to death” are really the same thing, or if one of them is an exception to the rule of the other, or if there is some deontic reading (as things we “ought” to do but are sometimes “required” to violate).

Or, you can insist on some third possibility to A and ~A (like “God does not exist”, or “God never said either of those”). That is, you can reject the law of the excluded middle and thereby accept contradictions. You can reject classical logic (and I think you should, on the grounds that it has nothing to do with the world), which has two consequences. The appearance of contradictions in the bible no longer compels anything. We can tolerate the contradiction. It just might be the case that God embodies a paradox, or commands us to do contradictory things (he’s pretty demanding :slight_smile: ). And, we are no longer forced into your false choices (“accept this interpretation of the bible, or reject the entire thing”).

I guess I’m just stunned at the philosophical program of discrediting the bible. Until we have established that the world is straightforward and meant ot be understood by all, we cannot reject the bible on those grounds as “inaccurate”. Perhaps its accuracy comes at this expense. This idea is the intellectual older brother of fundamentalism. Both insist, at their core, that the bible can only be “all or nothing”, and that any contradiction is fatal.

Consistency is not all its cracked up to be. And a foolish consistency is just that: foolish. If you’re interested in pursuing the hobgoblin of little minds, then there you have it. If you’re interested in truth, you have to be more sophisticated.

kg m²/s²

Bravo, Newton Meter. I think that because some part of the Great Unwashed urge on us that the Bible is in some way the literally true, verbatim inspired Word of God, and such a statement flies in the face of virtually every fact we know, does not require rejecting it as total garbage. There are some meaningful and valuable insights into human nature to be gained from just reading it as literature. For those of us who believe in a God who tries to communicate a way of living to humanity and used the human authors as vehicles to try to get this across (and in consequence had His intent besmirched with things like a genocidal Israelite commander claiming that He commanded that all of some given group among the enemies of Israel be killed, man, woman and child), it gives, intelligently read, an insight into God’s purpose – but one has to be careful to keep the context straight to do this.

“Time shouldn’t be a concern” is not equivalent to “getting it done right now.” If time isn’t a concern, then it seems to me that that should mean God can do what he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. Our opinion on whether it’s taking too long don’t matter.

Why is it never translated that way except in footnotes?

Thou shalt not kill.
Except when thou shalt.

Is there not a contradiction when God tells his people that they should not kill, then gives them specific exceptions, but He Himself repeatedly kills people who haven’t met those exceptions? Or are we to believe that, for instance, every single man, woman, and child in the world outside of Noah’s immediate family met one or more of His criteria for execution?

God repeatedly kills children, or condones, endorses or allows the killing. Most toddlers I know aren’t capable of meeting any of the criteria for execution except that God doesn’t happen to like their people. Heck, the book of Joshua alone features several cities being “annihilated,” leaving no survivors.

What’s the excuse? “God was really moody back in the day?” I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer as to why people still include the Old Testament in their Bible when they have to make excuses for the God described therein.

Flat contradictions?

God Loves Everybody but destroys cities.
God Loves Everybody but kills children.
God Hates Evil but allows it to exist, blaming humans for temptations He creates. If he’s so concerned about Free Will, how does that explain His making it more tempting to do Evil? How does it explain His allowing the Devil to tempt people?

It’s translated as “You shall not murder” in the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New King James Version, the Amplified Bible, and “Do not murder” in the New Living Translation. See http://www.bible.com

So what you’re saying is that God should be living by the same rules that he lays down for man. Would you also argue that parents should live by the same rules they lay down for their children?

I stand corrected on that point. I should have said something more to the effect of “Why have I never seen it translated that way except in footnotes?”

But don’t allow my error there to prevent you from explaining why it’s OK for God and His people to murder and then immortalize it in their holiest book.

In the long run, if it says “Thou shalt not murder,” then gives the specifics of what constitutes legitimate killing, it is more damning to the book as a whole, as a vast number of murders are perpetuated by God and his people.

God hardened Pharoah’s heart, no? And then killed all the firstborn of Egypt because of that selfsame heart-hardening? Murder.

When lives are at stake? Yes, I think that’s reasonable.
Father: You should not murder people.
Son: Can I go over to Joey’s house?
Father: No, I’m going to kill Joey because his dad made me angry.

I think it’s safe to say that the original giver of life should have more freedom to determine when life should be taken away… especially when that person is omniscient and has more knowledge of the circumstances than any mortal can claim.

Not quite. Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart, several times beforehand. As for the final hardening, see this analysis of the text.

Why should we claim that those are the only options? I think the fallacy of the excluded middle applies here.

What if the Bible is a text which requires some effort in order to understand… diligent and prayerful study, with close attention to detail? Or what if it is deliberately vague on some matters that are not imperative (e.g. fine points of end-times eschatology)? The Bible does warn people to be vigilant about Christ’s return, so it’s reasonable that some matters won’t be perfectly clear until after then.

As seen in this very thread, much of the miscomprehension regarding the Bible has been due to incomplete and careless readings of the text. Such mistakes are virtually inevitable, especially when people set out with the intent of finding errors. I think it’s unfair to expect the Biblical authors to water down their text, simply to accomodate the lowest denominator.

Yes, I’m genuinely interested in the answer. However, I’m disappointed that the link did not provide it.

“When parents do wrong or experience punishment on earth, their children share the ill effects - if a parent is put in jail, their children are adversely affected; if a parent is abusive or negligent, their children suffer. This sort of thing occurs in many places in the Bible. For instance, Achan and his family died as a result of his disobeying God (Joshua 7). However, while children often shared the earthly punishment of their parents, they would not be punished for their parents’ sins in the afterlife. Ezekiel 18 makes it clear that the real guilt belongs to the person who sinned, not their family.”

A. This makes God sound like a jerk. He punishes the parents with no regard to how it will effect the children, but he’s not really punishing the children. They’re just “collateral damage.”

B. However, Exodus 34:7 makes it sound like he is deliberately punishing the children. “Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

C. “In other words, the true distinction is between life on earth and the afterlife. People do not receive precisely what they deserve while they are on earth; they are affected by the actions of those around them, and thus can be said to be punished (i.e. experience suffering) for their relatives’ wrongs.” However, 2 Kings 14 makes it clear that Amaziah believes the statement to pertain to this life on Earth. Allow me to reiterate verses 5 and 6:

So God himself says he will punish the fathers and the children unto the third and fourth generations because the guilty will not go unpunished, thus implying the children and children’s children are also guilty. God does not say, “I’ll punish the fathers and their innocent kids, grandkids, and great grandkids will just have to deal with the fallout.” But the Law says that children are not to be killed for their fathers’ sins because they are not guilty.

Finally, as Scupper and Czarcasm have pointed out, God often commanded the Israelites to go in and destroy entire villages, including children, infants, and the unborn. (See Numbers 31:17; 1 Samuel 15:2, 3; 1 Samuel 22:19; Isaiah 13:16, 18.) These children’s only “sin” was being conceived by parents who were not Israelites, yet they had to pay for that with their lives. God punished the children for their fathers’ beliefs. Therefore, God definitely delivers a conflicting, contradictary message.

I think it makes him a hypocrite.

Okay.

Um, this isn’t an analysis, this is an opinion. “I take this to mean…” doesn’t mean anything to me other than this person doesn’t like what it actually says. Even as an opinion, it’s a weak defense of God’s actions in this case. He even says “God brought about the situation,” which I take to mean “caused the whole problem in the first place.”

“I have hardened his heart,” is not vague. Trying to say God didn’t mean what he said is a bit of a dodge.

Please note that the third quote on the post above was not from the same author as the first two. It is from the link provided by JThunder. Sorry for any confusion.

I should clarify, I’m not saying that God’s taking to long by my standards, but rather that God is taking too long by his own standards. I get the distinct impression from the Bible that evil is bad and should be gotten rid of as soon as possible. (which, of course, for an omnipotent being is right this instant.)

No, he didn’t. I believe the phrase “God hardened Pharoh’s heart” and related phrases are errors in the text. But then I’m a Mormon, and most people ignore what I say anyway. :slight_smile:

If you care about the LDS interpretation, see Scriptures vs. Scriptures. See Scriptures for what “JST” means.

I’m afraid that’s not a valid comparison. If you’re going to accept the premise of the existence of the Christian God (I’m not familiar enough with Judaism to properly represent it, so I’m sticking to what I know), then you must accept the afterlife. Hence death is not the ultimate end, and is not as severe as it would be if there were no afterlife. Jesus quite clearly indicated that wickedness was worse than death.

Lowest common denominator? Isn’t the word of God supposed to be for everyone? Jesus spoke in parables to make his message easier for the “lowest common denominator” to understand. But that’s beside the point.

The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. It is supposed by many to be “inerrant” and “perfect.” They go so far as to insist that it should be in the classroom along side, or in place of, science books because it is so inerrant and perfect. But it is clearly not. It was written by dozens of different people over several centuries. These writers all write from their own point of view. They have their own agendas to push and they all have their own take on history. And sometimes these views conflict with each other.

Check this out: Everyone knows David killed Goliath, right? However, 2 Samuel 21:19 states, “In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.” Elhanan killed Goliath? Oopsy daisy! Some Bible scholars give a scholarly reason for this flub: Elhanan killed Goliath. But, when a person becomes king, often things they did not do are attributed to them to make them sound bigger and better than they were. In this case, the editor of 2 Samuel overlooked this reference to Elhanan when he was replacing his name with David’s.

BUT, 1 Chronicles 20:5 calls Elhanan the son of Jair and says he killed Lahmi, the brother of Goliath.

So, does 1 Chronicles 20:5 contradict 2 Samuel 21:19? Does 2 Samuel 21:19 contradict every other passage in the Bible that says David killed Goliath? Does this or does this not reflect that these passages were written or edited by someone with a political agenda? Therefore, does this or does this not affect how we should view the rest of the Bible? Are we really reading the word of God or are we instead reading what some king, politician, prophet, poet, etc., wanted the word of God to be?

After all, even Jesus claimed in Matthew 19 that Moses told the Israelites they were permitted to divorce “because your hearts were hard,” but that wasn’t “the way from the beginning.” I’ve heard Christian apologists claim this means Moses told the Israelites the opposite of what God intended because he (Moses) didn’t think they could meet God’s impossibly high standard. In other words, God commanded X but Moses told them Y and that’s what got put in the Bible. So if we accept that individual writers let their views color the word of God, then… call it throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but how can we accept any of it as the pure, perfect, inerrant word of God? How can we be sure that any of it represents what God wanted? God says he’s not the author of confusion, yet these contradictions do cause confusion and division.

As for “setting out with the intent of finding error,” some of these examples have troubled me since I was a child. It disturbed me that the Christmas and Easter stories couldn’t be read the same way twice. It disturbs me to this day when people hurl Bible verses at each other as weapons. Christians are also very good at pulling verses out of context to fit their purposes, and it disturbs me when people go back and forth fighting, each person using conflicting verses to back up their positions. It disturbs me that people use the Bible as justification to discriminate against homosexuals, and in the past used it as justification to enslave blacks. Are these peoples’ actions the Bible’s fault for not being written to accommodate the “lowest common denominator”? The pastors’ fault for not being able to explain the Bible to the “lowest common denominator”? Or the individuals’ fault for being the "lo

What if scholars from around the world try to “translate” the Bible through diligent and prayerful study, but still come up with completely different ideas on which parts are fact and which are parable? You surely are not making the claim that those who believe differently from you about what the Bible actually says are not studying and praying as diligently as you.

My personal favorites:

God is “merciful.” Yet he helps and promotes the slaughter of Amalakites, Egyptian first borns, and denizens of Jerusalem, and dozens of other atrocities.

I Samuel 15:3

Exodus 12:12

Numbers 31:17

Ezekiel, 9:4 - 9:6

I fail to see how anyone (even the most interpretive Christians) can explain away these Hitlerish(to coin the term, maybe) orders.

Qwertyasdfg:

You left out the ordained genocide of Joshua 10:40 :

(NIV translation, emphasis mine)