# What is the most overrated virtue? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2022, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271 "2022-05-28T20:56:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/41 "2022-05-30T22:37:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you rush out to commit sloth, it defeats the whole purpose. You must certainly realize, of course, that by now I’ve _already_ done these things. That said, note that hasty acts of sloth can be done, if the details are very carefully planned and managed. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/42 "2022-05-30T23:30:40Z")
And, again: The Muppets had a TV special called, “The Seven Deadly Sins Special,” where skits and song-and-dance illustrated the 7 Deadlies. They had gotten through six of them and were out of time, did the closing credits and, just before the black-out, there was a knock at the door, and the Muppet there said, **Hi, I’m Sloth, am I late?** I think Miss Piggy was Lust. ---
**Author:** ![LoneRhino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lonerhino/32/1311_2.png) [@LoneRhino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LoneRhino)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/43 "2022-05-30T23:38:09Z")
Loyalty can also mean supporting people when they’re going through a rough time. ---
**Author:** ![Eric\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Eric\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric_C)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/44 "2022-05-31T00:02:39Z")
Although not specifically described as virtues, I think that the Scout Law of the Boy Scouts of America is relevant to this discussion:" A Scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent ." In addition to the “virtues” previously discussed in this thread, I would single out “obedient” as problematic given the connection between obedience and authoritarianism. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/45 "2022-05-31T12:27:10Z")
Absolutely. That’s why I added “mindless.” Many people define “loyalty” with the idea that it has no conditions or limitations. To paraphrase The Wild Bunch, “It ain’t being loyal that’s important; it’s who you give your loyalty to.” ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/46 "2022-05-31T13:26:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > So they were doing a hard sell on the modesty? Blazing Saddles guy: “I really like modesty.” ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/47 "2022-05-31T13:46:13Z")
You saw a very different version of that movie than I did. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/48 "2022-06-01T14:40:56Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > The biblical term is “the fear of the Lord” (meaning a reverential and worshipful attitude, not how “fear” is used in modern English). Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I wonder how many other things are being misinterpreted because the language has shifted… ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/49 "2022-06-02T14:40:59Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Faith isn’t one of the traditional virtues in Christianity. Charity/generosity, patience, dilligence, modesty, kindness, patience, and modesty are the 7 traditional Christian virtues. You put modesty twice. Is that just to show everyone how modest you are? 😛 Loyalty is OK until it conflicts with any other virtue. Then it becomes problematic. Honesty is OK but problematic because you can’t actually be honest about a lot of things. Subjectivity, objectivity, selective memory and biases affect us profoundly. However, if something happened and you knowingly obfuscate it, then that’s lying. I would prefer to condemn the “vice” side of this equation, lying. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/50 "2022-06-02T14:55:04Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Faith isn’t one of the traditional virtues in Christianity. Charity/generosity, patience, dilligence, modesty, kindness, patience, and modesty are the 7 traditional Christian virtues. Patience twice as well. I waited and waited for someone else to point it out, and just couldn’t wait any longer! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/51 "2022-06-02T15:00:49Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#): > > Patience twice as well. I waited and waited for someone else to point it out, and just couldn’t wait any longer! 😉 lol that’s funny ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/52 "2022-06-02T15:04:45Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > You put modesty twice. I respect your modesty and patience in waiting to point this out until long after somebody else had a chance to do so. With the sin of pride, I thought I was the smartass for noticing two modesties, but I was out-smartassed in failing to notice two patiences. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/53 "2022-06-02T15:07:21Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It relates to the strange question I have heard devout Christians ask about atheists - without fear of God’s judgment, what is to stop atheists from rape murder and pillage? > > I can’t speak for all atheists, but I don’t do those horrific things because I believe they are wrong. And what I find far more frightening is the implication that if these devout believers _lost_ their faith and thus _lost_ their fear of God’s punishment, rape murder and pillage would immediately ensue. Indeed. It seems to me to be such an obvious thought, yet I have heard the question asked in earnest. Belief in a deity or punishment for misdeeds is not necessary to live an ethical life, and anybody who asks that question is suspect to me: if you believe those conditions are necessary to eschew evil or unethical behavior, is that all that’s keeping you from evil and unethical behavior? If the “camera” wasn’t watching, you’d be up to all sorts of no good? Better to be the person who acts good of their own volition than one that does so out of fear of consequences. It’s all so obvious and basic, and something I would expect a ten-year-old to grasp (if not always be able to act out), but their are actual adults who ask the question in all sincerity. There’s an adjacent adage that comes up in the lockpicking community in comments online: “Locks are for keeping honest people honest.” Meaning that they’re no so much there to deter the determined thief, but more the casual joe who might want a peek. I hate that saying. I understand I’m taking it perhaps a hair too literally, but an honest person doesn’t need a lock to be kept honest. I came across an open trunk door the other day. I closed it for the person. (It has happened to me many times where my fob rubbed against my pants and, unbeknownst to me, popped open the trunk.) I didn’t have a look to see if there was anything interesting there. I’m (generally) an honest person, so I did what an honest person would do. No lock necessary. No god necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/54 "2022-06-02T15:09:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > and anybody who asks that question is suspect to me yep 100% ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/55 "2022-06-02T15:19:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Belief in a deity or punishment for misdeeds is not necessary to live an ethical life, and anybody who asks that question is suspect to me: if you believe those conditions are necessary to eschew evil or unethical behavior, is that all that’s keeping you from evil and unethical behavior? If the “camera” wasn’t watching, you’d be up to all sorts of no good? Better to be the person who acts good of their own volition than one that does so out of fear of consequences. Theist here, also in 100% agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/56 "2022-06-02T15:20:59Z")
Yes, many modern translators translate the Hebrew _yireh_ as “awe” rather than “fear”, which I think comes closer to the original meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/57 "2022-06-02T15:24:28Z")
Putting aside the ones like faith and patriotism which aren’t universally recognized as being virtues at all, I’d have to go with honesty. Too many people excuse rudeness and worse with some variant of “I have to be honest”. No, you don’t. Lying is generally wrong, but shutting the fuck up is always an option. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2022, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/58 "2022-06-03T00:01:58Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > You put modesty twice. Is that just to show everyone how modest you are? 😛 In the words of Weird Al, “Well I know I’m a million times as humble as thou art.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/59 "2022-06-03T00:10:30Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Theist here, also in 100% agreement. _Character is what you are in the dark._ –Dwight L. Moody ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271/60 "2022-06-03T03:43:06Z")
Some good replies here. If you agree that “virtue is its own reward,” as I do, then the most overrated virtue is also the one offering the lowest ROI unto itself. (And correspondingly vice is its own - though not it’s sole - punishment.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-most-overrated-virtue/965271.md?page=4)