# What is the name for this Elizabethan-era men's outfit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120 "2009-05-12T01:17:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/1 "2009-05-12T01:17:03Z")
What do you call [this outfit](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Nicholas_Hilliard_003.jpg) that Sir George Clifford, an Elizabethan gentleman and “favorite” of the Queen, is wearing over his tournament armor? Clifford owned what may have been [the best suit of armor of all time - which still, miraculously, survives.](http://www.flickr.com/photos/thoog/544069813/sizes/l/in/set-72157600330606163/) But it seems as though he is wearing a different suit of armor in Hilliard’s portrait of him. Over it is a very dashing outfit that looks surprisingly like…a dress. But surely that’s not what they called it back then? What DID they call it back then? ---
**Author:** ![MarcinCiez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@MarcinCiez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcinCiez)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/2 "2009-05-12T02:57:54Z")
Uninisex Dress 😃 But seriously … tunic ?? OR in italian (??) Tunicella / Dalmatica ([Blue Tunicella or Dalmatic of Holy Roman Empire](http://medieval.webcon.net.au/extant_holy_roman_tunicella.html)) ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/3 "2009-05-12T03:21:48Z")
The National Portrait Gallery seems to think it’s a [jacket](http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait.php?LinkID=mp01138&role=sit&rNo=1). ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/4 "2009-05-12T09:23:33Z")
What looks like a skirt is an extra-large [peplum](http://www.tudorshoppe.com/Merchant2/renaissance_costume_glossary.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/5 "2009-05-12T15:44:13Z")
Surcoat. from wikipedia: > [@](#): > > A surcoat was an outer garment commonly worn in the Middle Ages by both men and women. It can either refer to a coat worn over other garments or the outer garment of a person. The name derives from French meaning “over the cotta”, a long, wide coat reaching down to the feet without sleeves. > > From about the 12th century, knights wore long and flowing surcoats over their armour, which were frequently emblazoned with the arms of the wearer. They usually extended to about mid-calf, had slits in the bottom front and back, and were sleeved or sleeveless. Historians believe that surcoats were worn to protect mail from direct sun, which heated the mail and the soldier inside. The surcoat also serves in areas of poor weather to keep the rain and muck of battle away from the easily corroded maille-links. The surcoat displayed the “arms” of a knight (origin of “coat of arms”) which identified him, which, with the rise of the great helm in the late 12th century and early 13th century, became more and more crucial. Some historians even cite this as a reason behind the spread of heraldry across medieval Europe. During the 13th century, knights also began to add plates of armour to the surcoat, the armored surcoat later became the medieval coat of plates. > > In the 15th century, once suits of plate armour became common, the surcoat was phased out of use. The period in the history of armour development in which surcoats first generally become rare is referred to as the “surcoatless period” (1410-1430). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/6 "2009-05-12T16:40:49Z")
Yes, I’d say a particularly elaborate and poofy surcoat. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/7 "2009-05-13T14:37:39Z")
and by the way, I own one. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/8 "2009-05-13T15:13:48Z")
Why am I not surprised? :rolleyes: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/9 "2009-05-13T17:13:34Z")
Isn’t that a doublet? I thought surcoats were earlier. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/10 "2009-05-15T15:44:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t that a doublet? I thought surcoats were earlier. Surcoats were earlier, however, this gentleman apparently was indulging in a fashion trend of the time of wearing an “ancient” garment in order to pose for a portrait. This was quite common through the years. People would dress as romans, greeks, Hercules, or some hero-type they admired and have their portraits painted. He has had the surcoat made with a liberal view of historic authenticity. No doubt the seamstress wanted to make sure it was pretty in the veiwpoint of the patron. ---
**Author:** ![kittenblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ba8739/32.png) [@kittenblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kittenblue)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/11 "2009-05-30T16:13:04Z")
Sort of like people dressing up for vintage photos today? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/12 "2009-05-30T16:44:04Z")
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ---
**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/13 "2009-05-30T20:33:36Z")
Where is the armour on display? ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/14 "2009-05-31T03:45:02Z")
The armour of George Clifford is _beautiful_. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/15 "2009-05-31T10:21:22Z")
The armour is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/16 "2009-05-31T15:50:33Z")
> [@Savannah](#): > > The armour of George Clifford is _beautiful_. Yeah, I’d wear it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/17 "2009-05-31T16:05:22Z")
Not a surcoat, nor a jacket, nor simply a doublet or jerkin, as such. They are called _[bases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bases_(fashion))_. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/18 "2009-05-31T16:14:20Z")
The design on the armor shown in the painting is completely different from the armor in the photograph. The painting shows a design of 8-pointed stars, while in the photograph there’s a more complex pattern fleurs-de-lis and roses alternating with bands of an interlaced design. Maybe for comfort’s sake, George didn’t pose with the armor on-- and the artist filled in the armor design later, and not seeing the armor in from of them, just had to make up something? A dress is, topologically, basically, no different from a long shirt. In the Uyghur language, the same word is used for both ‘dress’ and ‘shirt’ (_köynäk_). How come nobody says the hip-hop guys with oversized tee shirts down to their knees are wearing dresses? (Probably because they’d kill anyone who said that). The only real difference between a dress and a long shirt is the styling and detailing. The styling on George’s garment is so feminine to modern eyes that we see a dress where Elizabethans would have seen male garb. For one thing, knee-length skirts were exclusively male in premodern times, as women’s hemlines were always ankle-length or floor-length. It was only after skirted garments for men had completely disappeared that women’s hemlines rose higher. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/19 "2009-05-31T16:25:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not a surcoat, nor a jacket, nor simply a doublet or jerkin, as such. > > They are called _[bases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bases_(fashion))_. Agreed. When with military garb, like armor, it’s bases. Were it worn over hose or breeches, I’d call it a doublet. If it had no sleeves and was over another layer of cloth, it’d be a jerkin. Surcoats were way earlier, so much so that I know very little about them. This isn’t an ancient garment for the times, but a very fashionable and modern one. WhyNot, ex-RenFaire costumer ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120/20 "2009-05-31T17:56:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The design on the armor shown in the painting is completely different from the armor in the photograph. The painting shows a design of 8-pointed stars, while in the photograph there’s a more complex pattern fleurs-de-lis and roses alternating with bands of an interlaced design. Maybe for comfort’s sake, George didn’t pose with the armor on-- and the artist filled in the armor design later, and not seeing the armor in from of them, just had to make up something? From what I’ve read, the Hilliard portrait of Cumberland (Clifford) shows him dressed up for the Ascession Day Tilt; there was some kind of theme to his costume, from what I read on a different site (can’t remember where) and the star motif on the armor went with the design on his shield. It’s highly likely that Clifford had multiple suits of armor made for him. The man was Queen Elizabeth’s “favorite” and her official jousting champion, so I suspect he probably could have had whatever he wanted. I can’t even imagine what it would have been like to be that guy - he was probably like the ultimate ideal of a man for the time period, not only handsome and rich, but an accomplished buccaneer on the high seas, and a _jousting_ champion besides. There isn’t a modern-day celebrity who even remotely compares to the kind of prestige that Clifford would have had. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-name-for-this-elizabethan-era-mens-outfit/496120.md?page=2)