# What is the narrative of slavery apologists in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 15, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606 "2015-11-15T00:43:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/21 "2015-11-16T23:03:01Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m not sure who the OP is talking about specifically, but here’s some more slavery apologia I’ve seen: > > 1. Slavery is an ancient cross cultural institution, and is approved by The Bible, so singling out the South as a unique evil isn’t fair. > > 2. Black families were more intact under slavery than today. > > 3. Depictions of cruelty are liberal propaganda and/or a few bad apples that were sensationalized to sell books or legitimize the Civil War. > > 4. The North was just as racist as the South. > > 5. There were non-white slave owners. > > 6. The Muslims had white Christian slaves. > > 7. The vast majority of Southerners didn’t own slaves. > > 8. Slaves were given free boarding and food. > > 9. It wasn’t worse than whites working in a factory or coal mines, or child labor, or the Chinese on the railroads. > > 10. Africans were Christianized instead of living and dying as pagans. > > 11. If slavery was so bad why didn’t they try to escape more? > > 12. Someone will try to use some metric and compare it to serfs in Russia or African countries to prove slaves had it good. Literacy, height, life expectancy, etc. It isn’t so much the fact that slavery is an institution that crosses racial and national boundaries. White people have been enslaved, blacks enslaved other blacks, etc. My point is that I get the impression that some people in the south are trying to whitewash slavery of black people, and make it seem like a benign (or as non-evil) as possible. I wondered what their arguments are. I think they say things like you say above. Slaves were an investment, so they were treated like family instead of abused. Slave families stayed together. Slaves appreciated what their masters did for them, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/22 "2015-11-16T23:19:23Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Well, these are true. I’d call the former an essentially true generalization, though of course not applicable to every person. The latter is simple fact. > > But then, I don’t see either of these as actually _counting_ to excuse slavery at any level. > > Your family history is not really relevant, IMO. Slavery is part of your heritage because you are an American, full stop. Bullshit. That’s like saying all Muslims are to blame for the attacks in Paris. All Christians share the blame for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church. All Germans are to blame for the Holocaust. All men are to blame for the rape of women. All human populations have at some point in time enslaved other human populations. The only question is what they called it and how long ago it was. If its now and current, put a stop to it. If its a generation ago, stop blaming the people who are alive for the actions of a society now dead. Until we get over the idea that we carry some sort of collective guilt or responsibility for the actions of those who are like us, we aren’t going to make progress. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/23 "2015-11-17T02:06:19Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > It wasn’t nice, but they were no worse off then they were in _Africa_\* > > - > - where everyone is illiterate, godless pagans, running around naked. And likely to be killed by the wildlife. And HOT - it’s HOT there, too\* Per Robert E. Lee: > [@](#): > > The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. When you’re fighting to preserve the institution of owning other human beings as property, it helps to believe that God ordained that the whites should enslave the blacks so they could be whipped\* into a civilized, decent race of man. \*Literally ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/24 "2015-11-17T08:03:10Z")
I wouldnt call it an apology but I know of black families that can trace their ancestry to a single plantation (where they often take their name from) and they have [reunions](http://www.wessyngton.com/blog/tag/gardner-family-reunion/)based around that plantation. [Sweet Briar college](http://www.sbc.edu/)was started by a slave plantation owner and whats interesting is he gave many former slaves jobs on the campus. Now on the campus they still have some relics like an original [slave cabin](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/06/for-a-family-whose-ancestors-were-slaves-at-the-sweet-briar-plantation-a-loss/) and a slave cemetary and about 25% of the staff are descendants of the original slaves. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/25 "2015-11-17T12:51:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Bullshit. That’s like saying all Muslims are to blame for the attacks in Paris. All Christians share the blame for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church. All Germans are to blame for the Holocaust. All men are to blame for the rape of women. > > All human populations have at some point in time enslaved other human populations. The only question is what they called it and how long ago it was. If its now and current, put a stop to it. If its a generation ago, stop blaming the people who are alive for the actions of a society now dead. > > Until we get over the idea that we carry some sort of collective guilt or responsibility for the actions of those who are like us, we aren’t going to make progress. Who said anything about blame or guilt? Slavery is part of the cultural and historical heritage of America, and for all Americans. It continues to have ramifications today, and so do its offspring (Jim Crow, segregation, redlining, etc.). You’re not to blame for slavery and neither is anyone else alive today (aside from those involved in modern forms of slavery like human trafficking). That doesn’t mean that slavery, and its descendants, don’t still have effects in American society. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/26 "2015-11-17T14:03:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who said anything about blame or guilt? Slavery is part of the cultural and historical heritage of America, and for all Americans. It’s part of the heritage of America. It’s not necessarily part of the heritage of each individual American. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/27 "2015-11-17T14:12:44Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > It’s part of the heritage of America. It’s not necessarily part of the heritage of each individual American. Not in the sense of ancestry, perhaps, but in the sense of American history being part of the heritage of every American, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/28 "2015-11-17T14:30:47Z")
Define “heritage” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/29 "2015-11-17T14:40:43Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Define “heritage” Not particularly interested in this level of nitpicking. If you disagree, fine – I’m sure there’s a definition of heritage that fits my use of it here, and there’s probably a definition of it that fits your use. No big deal. My main point was that this acknowledgement of history is not an accusation or anything about guilt and responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/30 "2015-11-17T14:49:34Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Your family history is not really relevant, IMO. Slavery is part of your heritage because you are an American, full stop. That is not helping your case at all. I’m a first generation immigrant and I definitely don’t think of it as part of MY heritage. > [@](#): > > If that’s the same incident I’m thinking of, you’ve overstated what happened. The big to do was over a caption that read “The Atlantic Slave Trade between the 1500s and 1800s brought millions of workers from Africa to the Southern United States …” It’s true they referred to the slaves as workers but the third word in the caption was “slave” I know this is what everyone says but I still don’t buy it. They weren’t exactly “workers”. It’s weasel words, and indeed, everyone uses them to weasel out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/31 "2015-11-17T14:49:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not particularly interested in this level of nitpicking. Less nitpicking and more not seeing a reason to talk about the point if we were coming at it from two different directions. Yes, I agree that slavery is part of the heritage of America as a nation. No, I do not believe that it is part of each individual’s heritage simply because of the real estate where they reside. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/32 "2015-11-17T15:03:07Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Less nitpicking and more not seeing a reason to talk about the point if we were coming at it from two different directions. > > Yes, I agree that slavery is part of the heritage of America as a nation. No, I do not believe that it is part of each individual’s heritage simply because of the real estate where they reside. That’s fine – it’s a very small part of my point and I’m fine with discarding it for this discussion. My point is about the continuing and present effects of history on people today. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/33 "2015-11-17T15:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Anaamika** : > > That is not helping your case at all. I’m a first generation immigrant and I definitely don’t think of it as part of MY heritage. You’re still living in a country that was largely shaped by its history of slavery. For example: Your black neighbors, on average, probably earn less and are less educated than your white neighbors. Why? Ultimately, it’s because their ancestors were slaves, and even now, 150 years after the end of slavery, the wounds still haven’t healed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/34 "2015-11-17T15:14:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re still living in a country that was largely shaped by its history of slavery. For example: Your black neighbors, on average, probably earn less and are less educated than your white neighbors. Why? Ultimately, it’s because their ancestors were slaves, and even now, 150 years after the end of slavery, the wounds still haven’t healed. Not just slavery, but its offspring, all the way up to recent decades (redlining, employment discrimination, justice-system discrimination, etc.). It’s not some heavy curtain of slavery still hanging over us – there were, and still are, active forms of discrimination, even subtle as they may be (and even if they are not nearly as brutal or oppressive as slavery). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/35 "2015-11-17T15:20:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re still living in a country that was largely shaped by its history of slavery. Sure. Again: Part of America’s heritage, not part of **Anaamika** ’s heritage. Edit: I’d say the same about other things as well, of course. Freedom of religion or the moon landing or whatever. Part of America’s heritage, not necessarily part of the heritage of every soul who’s on American soil. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/36 "2015-11-17T23:57:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who said anything about blame or guilt? Slavery is part of the cultural and historical heritage of America, and for all Americans. It continues to have ramifications today, and so do its offspring (Jim Crow, segregation, redlining, etc.). You’re not to blame for slavery and neither is anyone else alive today (aside from those involved in modern forms of slavery like human trafficking). That doesn’t mean that slavery, and its descendants, don’t still have effects in American society. There is a hell of a lot that is part of the cultural and historical heritage of America - and we should acknowledge it all - good and bad. But for some reason, slavery is something that white people are supposed to be apologizing for. We don’t spend our time say “oh, gee, sorry about those women in Salem” or “that fire bombing of Dresden may have been a mistake.” But we seem to be asked to “defend” the indefensible history of slavery - and genocide of the Native American population and take responsibility for it. Did they happen, yep. Were they atrocious actions, yes. But they are no more my responsibility for having happened than they are the responsibility of African Americans or Native Americans. Yet there is an undercurrent of blame and guilt in the discussions. Perhaps it isn’t intentional - but its there. And its that which otherwise reasonable people are reacting to. Yes, it was horrible, but it wasn’t my fault any more than the hellish actions taken during the 30 years war - which, as a person of German decent, are also part of my heritage. We shouldn’t whitewash history. But its time to move on from needing apologize for things that happened before any of us was alive. And that doesn’t mean we should whitewash the modern impact of slavery. Slavery was followed by Jim Crow and lynchings and Civil Rights violations. Civil rights needs to be taught (but also needs to be expanded in how its taught - it isn’t just an African American thing - its a women’s rights and gay rights and religious freedom and…thing). Our African American population still lives at a disadvantage just on the color of their skin. It isn’t fair and it isn’t right. But white people as a whole are not the enemy and shouldn’t be treated as such. I didn’t set out this morning to oppress anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/37 "2015-11-18T01:33:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > We shouldn’t whitewash history. But its time to move on from needing apologize for things that happened before any of us was alive. Those things that happened before we were born are still affecting us today. We can’t just put it on a shelf and pretend it’s all over and done with. We white people are still benefiting from slavery and the subsequent decades of our disadvantaging the slaves’ descendants. Maybe we should feel a little guilty about that. Maybe we don’t get to be the ones to say when it’s time to move on. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/38 "2015-11-18T01:48:16Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Those things that happened before we were born are still affecting us today. We can’t just put it on a shelf and pretend it’s all over and done with. We white people are still benefiting from slavery and the subsequent decades of our disadvantaging the slaves’ descendants. Maybe we should feel a little guilty about that. Maybe we don’t get to be the ones to say when it’s time to move on. Maybe you should feel guilty about it. My family fought for the Union. I’ve been working for Civil Rights since I was nine. Maybe I shouldn’t be taking on guilt merely because of my race. Thats, there is a word for that…oh, yeah, racist. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/39 "2015-11-18T05:45:37Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Maybe you should feel guilty about it. My family fought for the Union. I’ve been working for Civil Rights since I was nine. Maybe I shouldn’t be taking on guilt merely because of my race. Thats, there is a word for that…oh, yeah, racist. You’re missing his point. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606/40 "2015-11-18T05:56:22Z")
Sorry, somehow I accidentally hit submit too soon. You’re missing his point. It’s not racist, even if I don’t agree with it. His argument has nothing to do with your ancestors. It has to do with the benefits we white people get because of the racism that happened in the past. The guilt is in taking advantage of this. Now, I admit, I don’t feel guilty for that. It’s not my fault, and I am doing what I can to eliminate the problem in the future. I don’t believe in guilt for things we cannot change. But many people do. That still doesn’t mean I think I get to decide when it’s been long enough. We can’t move on until all the effects are undone. And I will never understand feeling resentful about apologizing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-narrative-of-slavery-apologists-in-the-us/737606.md?page=3)