# What is the oldest continuous government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791 "2009-01-24T15:53:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/41 "2009-01-25T03:32:39Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The US had a violent transition of power in November 1963. Heh–except that power transitioned exactly as expected and planned for. But maybe this points to a problem with my definition: nobody would consider that a break in the continuity of US government. In general, it seems to me that when violence breaks the continuity of government, it’s because the violent person takes power. Maybe that’s what I should’ve said: when the new government takes power through violence, it resets the clock. Really not trying to move goalposts, just trying to figure out how to define a concept of continuous government. Edit: **Captain** , good call on the Glorious Revolution; that would match my criteria. **Shallora** , the gradual lessening of monarchical power wouldn’t, since it wasn’t done through violence. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![shallora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f9ae1b/32.png) [@shallora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shallora)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/42 "2009-01-25T04:03:49Z")
Than today’s Final Jeopardy subject is: **General Doper Political Questions** :: bets everything :: Answer: **This is the world’s oldest continous, soveriegn, unconquered government in existence.** “What is the United Kingdom?” Correct! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/43 "2009-01-25T04:17:04Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > The US had a violent transition of power in November 1963. What about the civil war? Emancipating the slave population was both violant and a big change. Not only but the vast majority of US land was taken by force through the 18th and 19th centuries from the Natives. I wouldn’t really call those peaceful transfers of power. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/44 "2009-01-25T04:26:24Z")
There’s such a problem with definitions here that it’s hard to set it straight. Failed revolutions don’t count, but coups that work within the confines of the constitution do. Would the German occupation of Norway\* (1940-1945) count, when the government and crown relocated to England but never formally surrendered and enjoyed the complete support of the public? The Quisling government was never recognized by any ruling or legislative body of Norway, nor elected. If it does, does that mean countries that have in periods declared martial law are resetting the timer? If it doesn’t, does that mean the Italian occupation of Ethiopia doesn’t count? (In which case, Ethiopia would be a serious contender - as the system of government never changed during the coups, only the bosses) Is this limited to the current day? Is the inclusion of commonry voting or voting for women a change of government sufficient to reset the clock? Can a country truly call itself a representative democracy before its’ entire population is allowed to vote? If so, where does the border of “major constitutional changes” go? Slavery, differantiation of race, women’s sufferance, voting of the commonry and so forth does not count? There’s just so much nitpicking potential for there to be an obvious answer. For instance, Bush was not elected in any sense of a democratic election acknowledged outside the US in 2000. The electoral college is unique to the US, as far as I know. If the standard is international mean based, does that constitute an undemocratic exchange of power? If the standard is US-centric, does that exclude Norwegian party coalitions who form joint governments? Does adding or removing another country from an empire constitute a radical enough change to reset the counter? And restricting the focus of it to constitutions - only relevant since the end of the feudal age - makes it even more narrow and, IMHO, useless. - Norway is of course disqualified by the Long Night - just using it as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/45 "2009-01-25T04:30:05Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > Napoleon conquered Switzerland in 1798 so Switzerland is disqualified. I think that was general Jean Menard, not Napoleon ( who wasn’t yet head of state and was preoccupied with Egypt in 1798 ). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/46 "2009-01-25T04:30:49Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > There’s such a problem with definitions here that it’s hard to set it straight. Failed revolutions don’t count, but coups that work within the confines of the constitution do. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/47 "2009-01-25T04:38:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > What about the civil war? Emancipating the slave population was both violant and a big change. Not only but the vast majority of US land was taken by force through the 18th and 19th centuries from the Natives. I wouldn’t really call those peaceful transfers of power. The United States government was not overthrown during the Civil War, although it temporarily lost a lot of territory. And while the US engaged in wars of conquest during the 19th century against indigenous folks, these wars never resulted in the US government being overthrown. As for Norway’s government in absentia, that’s an interesting case. I’d say that if a government has no actual authority in its claimed country, it’s not a government that counts. > [@Gukumatz](#): > > Is this limited to the current day? Is the inclusion of commonry voting or voting for women a change of government sufficient to reset the clock? Can a country truly call itself a representative democracy before its’ entire population is allowed to vote? If so, where does the border of “major constitutional changes” go? Slavery, differantiation of race, women’s sufferance, voting of the commonry and so forth does not count? Again, I think the revision I need to make is that, through an act of violence, someone new takes over the governing of the nation. If someone engages in violence sufficient to persuade the current government to change course, that doesn’t sound like much of a break in governmental continuity–but if someone says, successfully, “We’re taking charge now, we’ll shoot you if you resist,” that’s a break. Nitpicking the definition can be helpful, of course, in terms of refining it. Better yet, though, if you see a loophole in the definition that leads to a counterintuitive result, why not see if you can fix it yourself? I may be wrong in thinking that the basic idea of a continuous sovereign government with peaceful transitions to new governmental teams is an intuitive idea that’s just slippery to define precisely. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![spike404](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@spike404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spike404)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/48 "2009-01-25T04:58:30Z")
> [@shallora](#): > > Than today’s Final Jeopardy subject is: **General Doper Political Questions** > > :: bets everything :: > > Answer: **This is the world’s oldest continous, soveriegn, unconquered government in existence.** > > “What is the United Kingdom?” > > Correct! Ireland did not formally join the UK until 1801. But, that could be considered as an enlargement. Kinda like a new state. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/49 "2009-01-25T06:50:15Z")
If expansion disqualifies you, then the USA is certainly in trouble. Hawaii. 1959. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/50 "2009-01-25T08:48:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I think that was general Jean Menard, not Napoleon. Actually I was a little off - Menard commanded the initial thrust, but it was [Guillaume Marie Anne Brune](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Marie_Anne_Brune) who appears to have been the overall commander. Marie Anne? Huh. Not that anyone really cares, of course. I just hate when I fuck up nitpicks ;). ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/51 "2009-01-25T09:57:23Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > By the standards that seem sensible to me (clock reset by occupation by a foreign power or a revolution/government coup of some kind) I’d say our present system of government, when the monarchy in actual reality if not name became constitutional through parliamentary rebellion (1688), would be the point from which I’d count continuous government. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Surely England’s “clock” was reset in 1688, with the Glorious Revolution, later than Cromwell’s rule? The popular idea that the GR was completely bloodless is incorrect, and I’d posit that a foreign monarch assuming the throne is a pretty significant change in how government is managed. Isn’t that what I said? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/52 "2009-01-25T15:04:21Z")
> [@spike404](#): > > Ireland did not formally join the UK until 1801. But, that could be considered as an enlargement. Kinda like a new state. Also the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has only existed since 1927 but I suppose the central government wasn’t altered significantly by the establishment of the Irish Free State. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/53 "2009-01-25T15:15:05Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Isn’t that what I said? 😕 So you did. Must have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/54 "2009-01-25T16:38:19Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Also the United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has only existed since 1927 but I suppose the central government wasn’t altered significantly by the establishment of the Irish Free State. Otherwise known as jettisoning the millstone. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/55 "2009-01-25T16:43:00Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Otherwise known as jettisoning the millstone. 😛 Yep we did that all right. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/56 "2009-01-25T17:03:19Z")
What about Sweden? They haven’t been ruled by a foreign government since the 1520.s and there really hasn’t been that much of a hassle when new royal families have taken over. Sweden should at the least count since Jean Baptiste Bernadotte took over in 1818. (which, depending upon your definitions should put it in the runnings) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/57 "2009-01-25T17:16:36Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > What about Sweden? They haven’t been ruled by a foreign government since the 1520.s and there really hasn’t been that much of a hassle when new royal families have taken over. > > Sweden should at the least count since Jean Baptiste Bernadotte took over in 1818. > > (which, depending upon your definitions should put it in the runnings) Seems reasonable. But England still seems to be in the lead. **Fake Tales of San Francisco** , neither expansion nor compression would reset the clock, according to both my intuition and the (evolving) definition I’m using. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/58 "2009-01-25T17:17:11Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Not that anyone really cares, of course. I just hate when I fuck up nitpicks ;). Well, I care, actually. Plus I prefer Brune as a response, because I would never have remembered the name of this other guy you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/59 "2009-01-25T20:05:24Z")
I don’t know if there are any historical examples of this, but suppose we had a hypothetical nation or tribe where the accepted means of succession was for a challenger to challenge the existing leader to a duel to the death. This country continues for centuries to use this same means of succession, with a new boss successfully offing the old one every decade or so. Here, then, we would have the new ruler coming to power by violence, but maintaining the system of government. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/60 "2009-01-25T20:24:38Z")
This is the thread I was thinking of when I read the title of this one. > **[The Oldest Country on Earth.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=342866)** > > It’s something I’ve wondered for some time now: What is the oldest country on earth still in existence? Thank you in advance to all who reply 🙂 It had a different title but there were times when this thread and that one become quite similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=4)