# What is the oldest continuous government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791 "2009-01-24T15:53:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/61 "2009-01-25T20:42:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t know if there are any historical examples of this, but suppose we had a hypothetical nation or tribe where the accepted means of succession was for a challenger to challenge the existing leader to a duel to the death. This country continues for centuries to use this same means of succession, with a new boss successfully offing the old one every decade or so. Here, then, we would have the new ruler coming to power by violence, but maintaining the system of government. Well, how about a quasi-historical example: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex\_Nemorensis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_Nemorensis) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/62 "2009-01-25T22:27:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t know if there are any historical examples of this, but suppose we had a hypothetical nation or tribe where the accepted means of succession was for a challenger to challenge the existing leader to a duel to the death. This country continues for centuries to use this same means of succession, with a new boss successfully offing the old one every decade or so. Here, then, we would have the new ruler coming to power by violence, but maintaining the system of government. Interesting; I’d agree with you that this breaks my rules, but intuitively it sounds like the government continuing in the normal fashion. How would you define the conditions to account for this? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/63 "2009-01-26T00:42:39Z")
Japan might fit **Chronos** ’s criterion: day-to-day governing was done by the shoguns, who overthrew each other regularly; but each shogun proclaimed his loyalty to the emperor. The official line was that it was merely a new administration, rather than a new state. Most in this thread (including me) would consider each new shogunate to be a clock-stopper (most recent reset = the U.S. occupation after WW2). But, from a certain point of view, one could argue that MacArthur was merely one more shogun. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/64 "2009-01-26T05:40:45Z")
The 1911 Parliament Act in the UK stripped the House of Lords of most of its remaining power. Does moving from a bicameral legislature to a unicameral one constitute a change in Government for purposes of the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/65 "2009-01-26T06:49:01Z")
It’s still a bicameral legislature, but the House of Lords is now clearly the lesser of both houses and its consent to legislation can be bypassed in some cases. Even had the House of Lords been abolished outright, I don’t see why it would have reset the clock for the purposes of the OP. The UK government only requires the confidence of the Commons, and the Lords is less important and legitimate (and this was true even before the reform). It would have been more in keeping with a slow process toward greater democracy than shown a break in government. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/66 "2009-01-26T09:16:36Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > What about Sweden? They haven’t been ruled by a foreign government since the 1520.s and there really hasn’t been that much of a hassle when new royal families have taken over. > > Sweden should at the least count since Jean Baptiste Bernadotte took over in 1818. > > (which, depending upon your definitions should put it in the runnings) I do not see how Bernadotte’s ascension to the throne could be considered a coup or otherwise untoward. He was selected as crown prince by unanimous vote of the parliament. In fact, a few years ago in a similar thread, **Polycarp** suggested ([in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6757737&postcount=26)) Sweden as having had a continuous government since Gustav Vasa (since 1523). ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/67 "2009-01-26T09:28:10Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > I do not see how Bernadotte’s ascension to the throne could be considered a coup or otherwise untoward. He was selected as crown prince by unanimous vote of the parliament. > > In fact, a few years ago in a similar thread, **Polycarp** suggested ([in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6757737&postcount=26)) Sweden as having had a continuous government since Gustav Vasa (since 1523). I would at least consider the killings of a Monarch (Gustav III in 1792) to reset the clock? Or the “squabble” between the sons of Gustav Vasa? Or the coupe that cost Sigismund the crown in 1599? Just a few examples. The reason I choose Bernadotte was because he was the first of the current family, with the [coupe de etate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden#Coup_d.27etat_and_abdication) happening before his ascension. Maybe Charles XIII (1809) would be a better choice though, but he didn’t really do all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/68 "2009-01-26T09:50:02Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > I would at least consider the killings of a Monarch (Gustav III in 1792) to reset the clock? No? I mean, he was succeeded by his son, who was not involved in the assassination. You don’t consider the US’s clock to have been reset in 1963, do you? > [@WormTheRed](#): > > The reason I choose Bernadotte was because he was the first of the current family, with the [coupe de etate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_IV_Adolf_of_Sweden#Coup_d.27etat_and_abdication) happening before his ascension. Maybe Charles XIII (1809) would be a better choice though, but he didn’t really do all that much. That, on the other hand, is a much better motivation. I don’t have a very good grasp of history, I just saw there was something wrong with characterizing Bernadotte’s ascension as a coup, and I remembered that old post so I figured I’d link it. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/69 "2009-01-26T09:56:53Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > No? I mean, he was succeeded by his son, who was not involved in the assassination. You don’t consider the US’s clock to have been reset in 1963, do you? > > That, on the other hand, is a much better motivation. I don’t have a very good grasp of history, I just saw there was something wrong with characterizing Bernadotte’s ascension as a coup, and I remembered that old post so I figured I’d link it. You are of course quite correct about Gustav 3. I just wanted to point out some bloody stuff in the generally thought to be all to peaceful history of Sweden 🙂 But I do stand by my Bernadotte. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/70 "2009-01-26T10:12:45Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > I just wanted to point out some bloody stuff in the generally thought to be all to peaceful history of Sweden 🙂 A worthy cause. While Sweden’s been pretty peaceful recently, one shouldn’t forget that its history is still full of, you know, _history_ :). ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/71 "2009-01-26T11:46:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t know if there are any historical examples of this, but suppose we had a hypothetical nation or tribe where the accepted means of succession was for a challenger to challenge the existing leader to a duel to the death. This country continues for centuries to use this same means of succession, with a new boss successfully offing the old one every decade or so. Here, then, we would have the new ruler coming to power by violence, but maintaining the system of government. Well, violent succession wasn’t part of the system but was fairly accepted as legitimate in the Roman Empire. With this in mind and a whole lot of fudging later we have a winner: **The Roman Empire - 1496 years** I leave you to puzzle out what dates I’m using as the start and end. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/72 "2009-01-26T11:58:21Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Well, violent succession wasn’t part of the system but was fairly accepted as legitimate in the Roman Empire. With this in mind and a whole lot of fudging later we have a winner: > > **The Roman Empire - 1496 years** > > I leave you to puzzle out what dates I’m using as the start and end. 😉 Nope, you’re wrong–doesn’t count. I’ll leave it to you to puzzle out the disqualifying event. > [@Tom Tildrum](#): > > The 1911 Parliament Act in the UK stripped the House of Lords of most of its remaining power. Does moving from a bicameral legislature to a unicameral one constitute a change in Government for purposes of the OP? Remember, according to my standard, unless the change of government is effected by an act of violence on the part of the new power, it doesn’t count. > [@Sofis](#): > > I do not see how Bernadotte’s ascension to the throne could be considered a coup or otherwise untoward. He was selected as crown prince by unanimous vote of the parliament. Interesting, and Sweden may edge out Great Britain. I don’t know enough about Swedish history to say for sure, but from what y’all have said here, it sounds like the last time their clock was reset was in 1523, over 150 years earlier than GB’s. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/73 "2009-01-26T12:00:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nope, you’re wrong–doesn’t count. I’ll leave it to you to puzzle out the disqualifying event. > Remember, according to my standard, unless the change of government is effected by an act of violence on the part of the new power, it doesn’t count. > > Interesting, and Sweden may edge out Great Britain. I don’t know enough about Swedish history to say for sure, but from what y’all have said here, it sounds like the last time their clock was reset was in 1523, over 150 years earlier than GB’s. > > Daniel Nah, you need to check my post 67. I’ll leave it to you how you want to interpret it though. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/74 "2009-01-26T12:11:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nope, you’re wrong–doesn’t count. I’ll leave it to you to puzzle out the disqualifying event. If you actually have one particular event in mind, I’m happy to try. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/75 "2009-01-26T12:53:53Z")
I assumed the OP meant “oldest continuous government still in existence” but if not then I’d like to know what disqualifies the roman empire. The change from a republic to a dictatorship starting with Julius Caesar would seem to make that at least two separate periods of government anyway. If one’s no longer ruling can count and the roman empire is split up into eras by coupes then what about the Byzantine Empire? There was much loss and gaining of territory but there was continuous succession of emperors in Constantinople from 330 AD until it fell to the crusaders in 1204 so thats 874 years. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/76 "2009-01-26T13:01:15Z")
How about [Sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden)? IIRC, it should go back to Gustav Vasa in 1523, depending on how you define continuous. I’m still reading to see if the stinking Danes got uppity again after that, but I don’t recall that happening. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/77 "2009-01-26T13:02:53Z")
> [@Claptree](#): > > How about [Sweden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden)? IIRC, it should go back to Gustav Vasa in 1523, depending on how you define continuous. I’m still reading to see if the stinking Danes got uppity again after that, but I don’t recall that happening. Check my and Sofis discussion starting in post 66 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/78 "2009-01-26T13:17:39Z")
I’m quite certain there was only one page when I wrote my post. Damn you all! ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/79 "2009-01-26T13:44:47Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I assumed the OP meant “oldest continuous government still in existence” As did I, and it would seem everyone who has posted in this thread until **PM** suggested the Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/80 "2009-01-26T13:50:30Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I assumed the OP meant “oldest continuous government still in existence” Well he doesn’t specifically say that, but if so I apologise for the brief hijack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=5)