# What is the oldest continuous government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791 "2009-01-24T15:53:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/101 "2009-01-27T10:53:18Z")
> [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](#): > > Actually, as Constantine XI Palaiologos is not in fact dead, but merely sleeps in a marble cave beneath Constantinople, ready to retake the city for Christendom, we could argue that the Empire yet endures . . . I think Turkey might have something to say about that… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/102 "2009-01-27T10:59:39Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I think Turkey might have something to say about that… 😉 Bah, a minor detail in the face of a [great idea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/103 "2009-01-27T11:55:56Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Nepal was an absolute monarchy with no type of parliament until 1990. Since 1990, it has become a republic with no monarchy whatsoever. This is all true, but it doesn’t change anything. You could set up a different set of criteria which would make this apply–but the prince (?) who slaughtered the royal family didn’t take power. The Republicans didn’t take power by force. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/104 "2009-01-27T16:27:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is all true, but it doesn’t change anything. You could set up a different set of criteria which would make this apply–but the prince (?) who slaughtered the royal family didn’t take power. The Republicans didn’t take power by force. Neither did Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, and he had no connection to the officers who deposed Gustav IV. I really don’t see how wholesale massacre is less “violent” than a bloodless coup. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/105 "2009-01-27T22:36:26Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > Neither did Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, and he had no connection to the officers who deposed Gustav IV. I really don’t see how wholesale massacre is less “violent” than a bloodless coup. Again, it’s not just the violence: it’s that forceful taking-over of the government. The officers who deposed Gustav IV were the clock-resetters. Theoretically, they could have done so by holding a finger-and-thumb in their pocket and pretended it was a gun, and if they’d succeeded in taking over government through this ploy, that would reset the clock, according to the standard I set up. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/106 "2009-01-27T23:23:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is all true, but it doesn’t change anything. You could set up a different set of criteria which would make this apply–but the prince (?) who slaughtered the royal family didn’t take power. The Republicans didn’t take power by force. But it’s not a continuous government…it was a peaceful revolution that changed the form of government from an absolute monarchy to a republic. If you’re going to say that continuty is broken when Monarch A is murdered by would be Monarch B, who then takes his place while keeping the rest of the governmental structure intact, then then continuity has to be broken when the governmental structure fundamentally changes, no matter how peaceful that changeover occurs, because it’s a bigger change. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/107 "2009-01-28T02:52:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But it’s not a continuous government…it was a peaceful revolution that changed the form of government from an absolute monarchy to a republic. If you’re going to say that continuty is broken when Monarch A is murdered by would be Monarch B, who then takes his place while keeping the rest of the governmental structure intact, then then continuity has to be broken when the governmental structure fundamentally changes, no matter how peaceful that changeover occurs, because it’s a bigger change. Not all THAT peaceful, as there was a lot of street unrest leading up to both the 1990 change and the recent abolition of the monarchy. Although the unrest was not a violent coup per se, none of the changes would have been wrought without it. And then there was the pressure from the whole Maoist guerrilla movement, which did have an influence on events; they’re even represented in parliament now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/108 "2009-01-28T11:59:28Z")
In any case, Nepal’s not gonna qualify. I think y’all are wrong, but for the purposes of this thread it’s moot. ---
**Author:** ![newenergy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/919ad9/32.png) [@newenergy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newenergy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/109 "2015-01-26T21:55:10Z")
Britain/England/UK might have had gradual peaceful changes, but it seems to me that it’s a stretch to call the Government of King George the same as the modern government. Much bigger of a stretch than saying the government of George Washington is the same as the modern US government. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/110 "2015-01-26T23:33:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > By the way, **spike** , I suspect what you saw was a claim that the US is the oldest continuous (or even currently existing) representative democracy. Either that, or the claim you read was simply incorrect: there is no standard by which the US can claim to be an older government than England’s. England has transitioned rather than have one event define a marked change. Forget the monarchs, I will look at the Prime Ministers. Historians often cite Sir Robert Walpole as the “first” prime minister of Britain, others not. And he very much predated the George Washington, very much. ---
**Author:** ![newenergy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/919ad9/32.png) [@newenergy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newenergy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/111 "2015-01-27T07:06:57Z")
In theory the English Monarch having the power to dissolve the parliament could be said to imply it’s a Monarchy. The last time a Monarch dismissed a Prime Minister was in 1834. In 2011, the Monarch’s even theoretical power to dismiss ministers or dissolve parliament was removed. English democratic government is only 4 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/112 "2015-01-27T07:56:13Z")
> [@newenergy](#): > > English democratic government is only 4 years old. In the “pub quiz technicality” sense, perhaps, which is not only utterly divorced from reality, but has moved several states away from it and is living under an assumed identity to be sure it never meets reality again. A “pub quiz technicality” is a technicality that is, while not totally incorrect, is so far from anything an honest person would call factual that it is in most respects an outright lie. Calling a tomato a fruit is a “pub quiz technicality”, for example: In most contexts, it is being used as food, and therefore is a vegetable; it is only botanically a fruit, and then only to the limited extent botanists actually use such a broad and uninformative classification scheme. Saying “World War II never ended” or only ended umpty-decades after the end of the war is another, founded on the idiotic notion that _treaties_ decide the end of hostilities, as opposed to _the end of hostilities_ deciding when hostilities have ended. As the name implies, such things are used to make the stupid, who do not understand context, seem smarter than the intelligent, who do, which is mainly relevant in pub quizzes or other games of recall masquerading as games of intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/113 "2015-01-27T13:12:54Z")
> [@newenergy](#): > > In theory the English Monarch having the power to dissolve the parliament could be said to imply it’s a Monarchy. The last time a Monarch dismissed a Prime Minister was in 1834. In 2011, the Monarch’s even theoretical power to dismiss ministers or dissolve parliament was removed. > > English democratic government is only 4 years old. Sorry, but this is nonsense. First, it’s not ‘monarchical’; there are plenty of presidents out there with this power. Secondly, in the UK (_not_ England), the monarch hasn’t used the power autonomously since 1834. Thirdly, removing the power does not necessarily make us a more democratic country. There’s actually a _very_ strong sense that the Fixed Term Parliaments Act was a dreadful mistake we should do away with. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/114 "2015-01-27T13:41:32Z")
So, if I may propose these criteria: 1. peaceful change over a long time doesn’t count as a reset, except for: 2. sudden, major changes, which remake the very basis of how the constitution works do count as a reset. (such as abolition of monarchy, even if peaceful, or the transition from absolutism to constitutional government, or the change from a presidential to a parliamentary state, even if peaceful) 3. violent events which do not impact the underlying basis of the state do not count as a reset (so the assassination of Alexander II of Russia does not count, but one that caused the downfall of the state would count - although I’m struggling to think of one off the top of my head) 4. absorption of formerly independent states/breaking away of formerly dependent states do not count 5. conquest by a foreign power, and reconstitution under the original system of government, does not count. I recognise these are self-made criteria, but I hope it works for others. I have done a quick list of European states (don’t have time for rest of world), as Europe tends to have older countries than most anyway. Not a definitive declaration, but here to provide some information and context. United Kingdom – 1688 (Glorious Revolution made monarchy constitutional, although could argument be made for devolution in 1999?!) France – 1958 (establishment of Fifth Republic) Germany – 1949 (establishment of the Basic Law) Ireland – 1949 (abolition of monarchy, although due nod towards 1922’s independence) Belgium – tricky as in 1993 the establishment of a constitution that gives special place to the linguistic communities. But I’m plumbing for independence since 1830 Netherlands – 1815 Luxembourg – tricky, as technically a sovereign state from 1915, but in personal union with the King of the Netherlands; personal union ended 1890 Denmark – independent since the 10th Century, but democratic constitution enacted in 1849 Sweden – argument could be made for either 1809 Instrument of Government, or the 1974 one (although this appears to be largely tinkering with the previous settlement) Norway – in personal union with Sweden up to 1905, when its dynasty changed, but constitution in existence since 1814 Finland – independent from the Russian Empire since 1917, constitution adopted 1919 Iceland – republic since 1944 Portugal – democratic constitution adopted 1976 Spain – monarchy restored and democratic constitution adopted 1978 Italy – republic established 1946 Switzerland – established as a modern federal state in 1848 following the Sonderbundskrieg. Austria – debatable. Conquered by the Nazis and ceased to be democratic in the 1930s, and regained independence in 1945, but ostensibly governed by the constitution of 1920. Leichtenstein - independent 1866 Czech Republic – independent 1993 Slovakia – independent 1993 Slovenia – independent 1991 Croatia – independent 1991, but switched from presidential to parliamentary system in 2000 Bosnia-Herzegovina – current system of government has been around since 1995 Hungary – democratised 1989 Poland – current constitution, switching from parliamentary to presidential system, adopted 1997 Montenegro – independent since 2006 Serbia – constitution established 2006 Kosovo – sovereignty disputed, but constitution in effect since 2008 Albania – constitution since 1998 Greece – current democratic constitution since 1975 Bulgaria – present constitution established 1991 Romania – present constitution established 1991 Lithuania – present constitution established 1992 Latvia – independent 1991, but adopted constitution of 1922 Estonia – constitution adopted 1992 Belarus – independent 1991 Ukraine – in a state of flux of course, following 2014 revolution they have reverted to the constitution of 2004 Moldova - constitution adopted 1994 (southern) Cyprus – independent 1960 (northern) Cyprus - sovereignty only recognised by Turkey, but independence declared 1983 Malta – republic declared 1974 Russia – independent 1991 Vatican City – independent 1929 but no idea when the ‘constitution’ was adopted San Marino – constitution in existence since 1600, but no idea if this was a major changed from the previous system which is apparently from 1243! Occupied by the Allies in WW2 Andorra – established with a co-sovereignty in 1278, but does the fall of the French monarchy constitute republicanism from 1871? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/115 "2015-01-27T13:47:44Z")
Drat, missed edit window: was going to add: 1. absorption of formerly independent states/breaking away of formerly dependent states do not count **If the change does not alter the nature of the state before**. ---
**Author:** ![newenergy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/919ad9/32.png) [@newenergy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newenergy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/116 "2015-01-27T16:00:30Z")
Of course you’re right and it would be silly to say the English gov is 4 years old. That change didn’t change the government. I mentioned that as a continuation of my previous thought that the English government changed so much over time, but not all at once, that it’s hard to pinpoint the start. But, it doesn’t really seem right to say it’s the same government as it was in 1781, when the balance of power was tilted much more towards the King. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/117 "2015-01-27T16:15:28Z")
> [@newenergy](#): > > Of course you’re right and it would be silly to say the English gov is 4 years old. That change didn’t change the government. I mentioned that as a continuation of my previous thought that the English government changed so much over time, but not all at once, that it’s hard to pinpoint the start. But, it doesn’t really seem right to say it’s the same government as it was in 1781, when the balance of power was tilted much more towards the King. Sorry if I sounded a little snappish in my post. I get what you’re saying, which is why this thread has become quite lengthy as it’s difficult to pinpoint down and really comes down to personal criteria. But then ‘continuous’ is in the thread title and even in a system which has massively transformed over a long time scale, there remains heaps of continuity. So for the reason you state, that it’s difficult to pinpoint when the British system went from X to Y, is precisely why it has a better chance than most of meeting the criteria of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![newenergy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/919ad9/32.png) [@newenergy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newenergy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/118 "2015-01-27T16:42:25Z")
If there were a perfect answer, there wouldn’t be much discussion. I think there’s a reasonable way to set the conditions so that the US is the oldest government. Of course in other ways, the US has changed so much since 1781 it’s almost weird to say it’s the same nation, even if the constitution hasn’t changed much. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/119 "2015-01-27T17:38:51Z")
But why are you trying to set the conditions so the US is the oldest continuous government? ---
**Author:** ![newenergy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/919ad9/32.png) [@newenergy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newenergy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791/120 "2015-01-27T17:54:47Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But why are you trying to set the conditions so the US is the oldest continuous government? I don’t really care, but what’s the point of the question in the OP though? If you define what it means to be continuous and it gives you a result where some government that is 180 degrees away from what it was X years ago, but is still the same government because no single change met your standard of discontinuity, then maybe there’s a problem with your standards. I think, in a very real and reasonable way, the US government is the most consistent and most like the same government from longer ago than any other country. I understand there’s a reasonable argument for England as well. I think it’s government is less similar over that same period, but obviously more similar if you go back just a little further as the US didn’t exist. * * * You could get a very different answer here (and I have no idea what it would be) if you look at continuity in the bureaucracy instead of the top of the government. Could be that it’s neither the US nor England. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-continuous-government/482791.md?page=7)