# What is the oldest country in the world **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117 "2015-12-22T18:59:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/41 "2015-12-24T23:09:08Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I’d exclude Egypt, as its current Arab inhabitants aren’t directly descended from the Cleopatra-era Hellenic Egyptians, who weren’t directly descended from Tutankhamun-era Egyptians. Genetically they almost certainly are. There was very little Greek settlement outside Alexandria in Seleucid Egypt and very little penninsular Arab settlement outside a few garrion cities like Fustat. Recent studies have apparently demonstrated that ancient mummy DNA most closely resembles…modern Egyptians. Cultures and dominant languages change, but densely populated areas don’t tend to have wholesale turnovers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/42 "2015-12-24T23:58:39Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’ve always heard it was Ethiopia. Ethiopia was occupied by Italy 1936-1941. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/43 "2015-12-25T01:14:10Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I’d exclude Egypt, as its current Arab inhabitants aren’t directly descended from the Cleopatra-era Hellenic Egyptians, who weren’t directly descended from Tutankhamun-era Egyptians. They lack a continuity that the Chinese and Finns have. Were the Egyptians completely replaced both times by outside populations? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/44 "2015-12-25T03:50:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Ethiopia was occupied by Italy 1936-1941. Ah yes, so it was. Then how about Switzerland? Present form dates to 1848 with adoption of the Federal Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/45 "2015-12-25T10:44:59Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I’d exclude Egypt, as its current Arab inhabitants aren’t directly descended from the Cleopatra-era Hellenic Egyptians, who weren’t directly descended from Tutankhamun-era Egyptians. Are not the Coptic Christians the direct descendants? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/46 "2015-12-25T17:26:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are not the Coptic Christians the direct descendants? As **Tamerlane** has pointed out in post #41, **Horatio Hellpop’s** statement is incorrect. Most Egyptians are direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians. The various invasions did not result in population replacement. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/47 "2015-12-25T18:07:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Ethiopia was occupied by Italy 1936-1941. True, fascist Italy beat and exiled the Emperor (Halie Selassie), but after Italy was defeated a few years later everything returned right back to normal; so it was still the same country (despite the vacation). ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/48 "2016-01-04T21:13:59Z")
> [@dhricenak](#): > > No one has mentioned China yet. It seems some sort of political entity has occupied the same space since recorded history began. China was overthrown by the communist revolution, completely different form of government caused by a violent revolution. They date to 1949. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/49 "2016-01-04T21:16:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Egypt’s borders have been pretty variable. I don’t think China’s have (mostly because they are geographic). Egypt’s system of government is younger than my 3 year old. Current constitution dates to 2014. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/50 "2016-01-04T21:22:41Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I don’t think reorganizing the government is the same as changing the national identity (Does the US count as a new country every time we amend our constitution?). China and Finland both claim national histories in the 4-5 thousand year range. So does Korea, although the evidence is pretty slight. “Samaritan” is the oldest recognized nationality, although I don’t think it’s ever been a nation-state as such. No we don’t set the clock back for a constitutional amendment. In the OP I said that countries that “had their government change by violent or extra-legal means or military coup” So since the American Constitution allows for changes through legal means an amendment. However the articles of confederation had no such provisions, certainly not anything that would allow for the Constitution to be considered a legal successor of the Articles of Confederation we start the US clock in 1789 not 1776. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/51 "2016-01-04T21:31:14Z")
But the modern US is four times the size of the country as it looked in 1789. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/52 "2016-01-04T21:59:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But the modern US is four times the size of the country as it looked in 1789. That sounds like a problem for the people that didn’t stop US expansion. We’re looking at the continuity of government not a set geography. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/53 "2016-01-04T22:09:17Z")
So why does UK continuity stop with the Acts of Union (as per the OP)? In essence, that was just a geographic expansion. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/54 "2016-01-04T22:24:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So why does UK continuity stop with the Acts of Union (as per the OP)? In essence, that was just a geographic expansion. Because previous to that it was England (and possessions) and Scotland. However, both Scotland and England are still legal geo-political entities. so you could make a case for England, Scotland, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/55 "2016-01-04T22:37:32Z")
And the Lousiana territory was part of France, which is still a legal geopolitical entity, and Alaska was part of Russia, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/56 "2016-01-04T22:40:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So why does UK continuity stop with the Acts of Union (as per the OP)? In essence, that was just a geographic expansion. It was more than a geographic expansion. It was the creation of a new nation out of two previous ones. It saw the creation of a new parliament of Great Britain rather than the parliament of England just gaining new Scottish members. Heck maybe the UK should only count back to the act of union 1800. I admit the line is a bit fuzzy here and you may be able to count back to the glorious revolution and start their clock in 1689 unless you can think of a later revolution. Either way you only gain about 18 years over the original act of union. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/57 "2016-01-05T01:41:09Z")
I’m sticking with Switzerland and 1848. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/58 "2016-01-06T14:34:16Z")
I don’t think we should be counting loss or gain of territory as a change of the government. As someone said above: we’re not talking about geography. If someone were to invade, say Florida, and occupy it, and force a peace treaty where the US gave them Florida, that would not mean that the US ceased to exist, or significantly changed as a government. Honestly, I don’t know enough about the nature of various reforms in other nations to have a worthwhile opinion on which country is the oldest. I’d agree with the comment above that the US should probably date from the passage of the Constitution, not the Articles of Confederation or anything earlier. Maybe even from the end of the Civil War instead. I’d need to think about that for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/59 "2016-01-06T14:40:52Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m sticking with Switzerland and 1848. Hmmm, although I guess the US does beat that. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117/60 "2016-01-06T17:20:00Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Sweden…no military occupations or violent revolutions. Sweden might be a good choice. They have had a major shift in their government in 1866 when they became a constitutional monarchy. Certainly you couldn’t count them back further than 1772 when King Gustav III led a coup d’état, with French support, that established him as an “enlightened despot”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-country-in-the-world/741117.md?page=4)