# What is the oldest extant written document? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975 "2009-12-29T22:24:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Caiata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@Caiata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caiata)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/21 "2011-03-03T04:59:49Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Hey, after seeing your picture, I was able to Google an article on that poem. > > [The Oldest Line in the World](http://travel2.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/international/europe/14poem.html) Wow, more risque and less treacly than I expected! Thanks for that. The article mentions that the US has a lot of Sumerian writings, I wonder where they are kept? At the Smithsonian? I don’t remember seeing an exhibit when I was there _muffledymuffledy_ years ago with my 8th grade history class. > [@septimus](#): > > Probably not a candidate for very “oldest”, but some legal writings of [Urakagina King of Lagash (2380 BC–2360 BC)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urukagina) have survived. Yep, one of the tablets I linked to contains the text of some of his reforms. It’s a different document to the one linked in the Wikipedia page. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/22 "2011-03-03T06:13:37Z")
The Rosetta Stone is pretty ancient. It was the key to unlocking the Egyptian hieroglyphs. If my math is right, it’s what? 2011 years plus 196 = 2207 give or take a few sunsets 😉 . > [@](#): > > The Rosetta Stone is an Ancient Egyptian granodiorite stele inscribed with a decree issued at Memphis, Egypt in 196 BC on behalf of King Ptolemy V. > **[Rosetta Stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone)** > > The Rosetta Stone is a stele of granodiorite inscribed with three versions of a decree issued in 196 BC during the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt, on behalf of King Ptolemy V Epiphanes. The top and middle texts are in Ancient Egyptian using hieroglyphic and Demotic scripts, respectively, while the bottom is in Ancient Greek. The decree has only minor differences across the three versions, making the Rosetta Stone key to deciphering the Egyptian scripts. > The stone was carved during the Hellenistic ... ---
**Author:** ![Meee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Meee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meee)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/24 "2014-04-15T01:08:45Z")
> [@MwNNrules](#): > > I like to read in my spare time, and it occured to me that I didn’t know what the oldest written document known to man was. I knew that there were at least two ways I could find out: 1) on the internet; and 2) by asking Cecil Adams. When I was younger I remember reading that the oldest epic was _He who Saw the Deep_ (better known as _The Epic of Gilgamesh_), and I haven’t found evidence that there is another older epic. But a quick search on Google ( here’s the link [Google Search](http://www.google.com/search?q=oldest+written+work&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7GPEA_en)) revealed that it definitely _wasn’t_ the oldest document we know of, and frankly I wasn’t surprised. I checked the some of the sites provided by Google, but it soon became clear to me that I wasn’t finding real answers, just pseudo-answers. Then I checked Wikipedia’s article on the history of writing (link: [History of writing - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing)), and while there were some interesting things that seemed to be pointing in the right direction, they never explicitly stated what the oldest document was. I checked another Wikipedia article: ancient literature (link: [Ancient literature - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_literature)). This article was closer to what I wanted, but it was still a sloppy, undefinitive list of ancient works. Now you’re probably wondering why I was using Wikipedia in the first place: I know it’s an informal source, and I’ve seen plenty of mistakes, bullshit, and opinionated edits, but I know the risks when I go there and I never use it as a firsthand source of information. But, back to the point, on Wikipedia I didn’t find anything that said anything definite about one document being older than anyother. So I can’t find anything on the internet, and my first choice is down (I could probably look harder and find something on the internet, but I’m not going through a hundred sites to find this). > So my second option is to ask Cecil Adams. I’ve always wanted to ask him a question, but I’m not just gonna waste his time on a question he might be able to answer in his sleep. So when I clicked on the Ask the Master page, and it said to ask the Message Board first, I took its advice. Here are my questions: what is the oldest extant written document? And while I’m asking, what is the oldest example of writing in general (i.e. not fully extant)? > > **Note: if a similar thread exists, please point this out to me. I’ll look at the thread and see if it has the information I want. If it does, I will delete this thread, but if it doesn’t, I’ll keep it until I get a satisfactory answer.** Hello there… How about written tablets that are over 37 000 years old??? You might like to Google “The Emerald Tablets” Enjoy the truth!! ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/25 "2014-04-15T03:22:22Z")
At this time of year, I guess it’s natural that a dead thread be resurrected, but it was all for naught. > [@](#): > > The location and source of the original tablet or document are unknown. It is only known through translations. > > … > > Despite the claims of antiquity, it’s believed to be an Arabic work written between the sixth and eighth centuries. > > [Emerald Tablet - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Tablet) Sounds like the far-out ramblings of a doped-up egomaniac: > [@](#): > > From this are & do come admirable adaptations whereof the means (or process) is here in this. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist [Hermes the Thrice-Greatest], having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/26 "2014-04-15T04:04:00Z")
Things come full circle for threads and writing, as I compose this on a tablet. I suppose a lot of things have to come together to create “writing”. Pictures (I.e. cave drawings or carvings) tell a story; then someone realizes that it could be a sequence of pictures, and panoramas evolve into sequential linear storytelling. Shorthand and symbols become more representative, and so the artwork more simplistic as the meaning is more implied. Pictographs evolve into writing. The oldest stories? There are carvings in the desert from pre-dynastic Egyptian civilization. Some are like the Narmer Tablet, carved images to celebrate and commemorate events.apicture of the goddess, a series of pictures of the king slaying his foes, their headless corpses, him assuming the crown. This evolves into hieroglyphics. I suppose the accounting system was the easiest to evolve into real writing, because the medium truly was the message. Pretty or decorative was secondary to the importance of the content. The medium was designed to get the data to the recipient. The range of messages was very limited at first - inventories and names. Perhaps the next steps were the content that would also be useful to accountants, and then civil servants. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/27 "2014-04-15T06:59:16Z")
> [@Meee](#): > > Hello there… > How about written tablets that are over 37 000 years old??? > You might like to Google “The Emerald Tablets” > Enjoy the truth!! While the text in the Emerald Tablets claim to be incredibly ancient (going back to Atlantis) it first appeared around the 7th century CE. So presumably that’s when it was actually written. ---
**Author:** ![Jon613](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Jon613](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon613)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/28 "2014-06-01T23:18:28Z")
“What is the oldest extant written document? And while I’m asking, what is the oldest example of writing in general (i.e. not fully extant)?” An interesting topic. I looked into this question a few decades ago and at the time the answer was Cuneiform Tablets from Mesopotamia - the earliest one I could find (in the British Museum) was a tax inventory on the lines of “Jo Bloggs own 3 Fields of wheat; Fred Smith owns 2 fields of barley” on which the King would have been able to levy a tax. They were thought to be around 5,700 years old (but carbon dating was not so accurate in the 1980s). Here is a link to an old cuneiform document about beer rations: > **[BBC - A History of the World - Object : Early writing tablet](https://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/TnAQ0B8bQkSJzKZFWo6F-g)** > > A History of the World is a partnership between the BBC and the British Museum that focuses on world history, involving collaborations between teams across the BBC, and schools, museums and audiences across the UK. The project focuses on the things... a “good 5,000 years old”. There are pre-writing pictograms from earlier (usually only 2 or 3 letters). See “Proto-Sinaitic script”. However things have moved on in the last 30 years. Carbon dating has become much more precise. “A Sumerian clay tablet from around 3200 B.C. inscribed in wedgelike cuneiform with a list of professions “is among the earliest examples of writings that we know of so far,” according to the University of Chicago’s Oriental Institute’ director, Gil J. Stein. [Source: Geraldine Fabrikant. New York Times, October 19, 2010]” “(In 1998) it was suggested that the oldest writing might have come from Egypt. Clay tablets containing primitive words were uncovered in southern Egypt at the tomb of a king named Scorpion. They were carbon-dated to 3300-3200 BC. This is about the same time, or slightly earlier, to the primitive writing developed by the Sumerians of the Mesopotamian civilisation around 3100 BC.” (So Sumerian: 5,200 years old & Egyptian maybe 5,300 years old). Harrapan script (from Pakistan area): Early examples of the symbol system are found in an Early Harappan context, dated to possibly\* as early as the 33rd century BC. ( I don’t like that “possibly” - surely they have radio-carbon dating for these?) The first known examples of writing may have been unearthed at an archaeological dig in Pakistan. So-called ‘plant-like’ and ‘trident-shaped’ markings have been found on fragments of pottery dating back 5,500 years Undeciphered - most inscriptions - from much later date - are still only 5 characters long. [http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/hermann.moisl/ell365/oldest\_writing.htm](http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/hermann.moisl/ell365/oldest_writing.htm) Chinese symbols scratched on Tortoise Shells - found with “oldest musical instruments” (flutes) in a burial site - > **[BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | 'Earliest writing' found in China](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2956925.stm)** > > Symbols inscribed on tortoise shells found in western China could be the earliest written words. 8,400 years old ## There are also symbols fragments found in Europe that appear to predate Cuneiform. Wikipedia’s article on writing described the development of writing as follows: “In approximately 8000 BC, the Mesopotamians began using clay tokens to count their agricultural and manufactured goods. Later they began placing the tokens in large, hollow, clay containers (bulla) which were sealed; the quantity of tokens in each container came to be expressed by impressing, on the container’s surface, one picture for each instance of the token inside. They next dispensed with the tokens, relying solely on symbols for the tokens, drawn on clay surfaces. To avoid making a picture for each instance of the same object (for example: 100 pictures of a hat to represent 100 hats), they ‘counted’ the objects by using various small marks. In this way the Sumerians added “a system for enumerating objects to their incipient system of symbols”. The original Mesopotamian writing system (believed to be the world’s oldest) was derived from this method of keeping accounts circa 3600 BC, and by the end of the 4th millennium BC, this had evolved into using a triangular-shaped stylus pressed into soft clay for recording numbers. This was gradually augmented with using a sharp stylus, indicating what was being counted by means of pictographs. Round-stylus and sharp-stylus writing was gradually replaced by writing using a wedge-shaped stylus (hence the term cuneiform), at first only for logograms, but evolved to include phonetic elements by the 29th century BC. Around 2700 BC, cuneiform began to represent syllables of spoken Sumerian”. It is an interesting detail that the signed names of the Sumerian scribes are Semitic names - so my guess is that wile Sumerian Cuneiform may be the earliest readable writing that survives and has been found. However writing may well have originated earlier, and elsewhere. There is fragmentary evidence after all from China, India, Canaan and Europe. ---
**Author:** ![EdwinAmi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@EdwinAmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwinAmi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/29 "2014-06-02T03:03:08Z")
Indus valley civilization - from what I remember those are the guys they found buried, huddled together holding each other, with spear marks inthe bones from when the agressors finally did them in. The Aryans I believe who came and invaded. Sad but compelling imagery ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/30 "2014-06-02T04:34:58Z")
> [@EdwinAmi](#): > > Indus valley civilization - from what I remember those are the guys they found buried, huddled together holding each other, with spear marks inthe bones from when the agressors finally did them in. The Aryans I believe who came and invaded. Sad but compelling imagery Sad indeed, but not particularly “compelling” in the sense of supporting any specific historical theory, and also not particularly **old**. In the first place, the Indus Valley cultures as urbanized societies with some kind of written glyph system aren’t any older than proto-writing in ancient Sumer. So we’re not looking at any verifiably earliest form of writing here. In the second place, it’s not yet demonstrated that the Indus Valley glyph system was a form of linguistic representation (writing) as opposed to a set of standard symbols (iconographic signs of deities, etc.) with no particular linguistic structure. In the third place, it’s now considered extremely unlikely that the vector of Indo-European cultural/linguistic characteristics penetrating the South Asian subcontinent took the form of large-scale military conquest. Far-fetched speculations based on rather hyped-up evidence of wounds (at least some of them actually inflicted years before death) on some skeletons found in Mohenjo-Daro archaeological sites are not currently seen as very persuasive. Environmental change and environmental degradation are probably more likely as the main drivers of demographic decline in Indus Valley urban centers. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/31 "2014-06-02T12:12:08Z")
This thread, amirite? ---
**Author:** ![EdwinAmi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5fc32e/32.png) [@EdwinAmi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwinAmi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/32 "2014-06-05T15:14:00Z")
I meant compelling in a human way generally, that these people were in this grave and about to be killed, and held on to each other for comfort. Some ancient culture thousands of years ago but still that same human element. > [@](#): > > Far-fetched speculations based on rather hyped-up evidence of wounds (at least some of them actually inflicted years before death) on some skeletons found in Mohenjo-Daro archaeological sites are not currently seen as very persuasive My understanding was that there were a lot of mass graves with wounds, and the people-huddled-together-holding-each-other-having-stab-wounds thing was found in numerous grave digs. Are you saying they later looked at the wounds and it turned out they were earlier in life because they showed signs of significant healing? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/33 "2014-06-05T16:26:34Z")
First I eventually realize that it’s a zombie thread, then it hits me that the posts mentioning its zombie status are zombies themselves. My head is spinning! Actually I’ve nothing against zombie threads other than the fact that the links in them are sometimes long dead themselves, such as that Oldest Line in the World link above. Damn, that looked interesting! Bless Google! Found a [fresh link for it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/international/europe/14poem.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/34 "2014-06-05T16:56:30Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Bless Google! Found a [fresh link for it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/international/europe/14poem.html?_r=0) Bless you! I too was fascinated to see “the oldest line” and was rudely disappointed at the dead link so thank you for hunting down a working one. Truely fascinating that one of the oldest poems is about boning. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/35 "2014-06-05T20:15:33Z")
Here’s good slideshow about the clay tokens. https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/embed_code/key/1ZtdQAzKZvct9a While the simpler tokens may have appeared by 8000BC, actual complex accounting clay tablets more like real writing appeared around 3500 to 3200BC and real writing, a few hundred years later (about 2800 to 2600BC). yeah, this is the future of StraightDope (and probably all future chat sites). Interesting zombies will be revived every few years to have another page or two added. In a decade or so, l all the good threads will be 20 pages long and nobody will have time to read the whole thing through. ---
**Author:** ![whitehorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/0ea827/32.png) [@whitehorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitehorse)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/36 "2016-10-11T14:52:28Z")
I have read about the fact that their are hieroglyphics of preflood Egypt that have as a subject Cain the son of Adam that show men with black slaves. I personally have never been able to verify this claim (fact) and would very much like to know as you do if these hieroglyphics:confused: really exist ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/37 "2016-10-11T15:22:26Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/38 "2016-10-11T15:34:02Z")
> [@whitehorse](#): > > I have read about the fact that their are hieroglyphics of preflood Egypt that have as a subject Cain the son of Adam that show men with black slaves. I personally have never been able to verify this claim (fact) and would very much like to know as you do if these hieroglyphics:confused: really exist I am not surprised that you can’t verify their existence. They are absurd lies promulgated by Christians who desperately want reality to conform to their mythology. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/39 "2016-10-11T16:38:41Z")
I also thought it telling that the first writings were accounting records … money is the only thing worth writing about back then … just how true is that today? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/40 "2016-10-11T16:40:54Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > They are absurd lies promulgated by Christians who desperately want reality to conform to their mythology. cite? ( I agree that “hieroglyphics of preflood Egypt that have as a subject Cain the son of Adam that show men with black slaves” is unlikely, but I want to see some documentation that this is some sort of Christian propaganda.) ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975/41 "2016-10-11T16:56:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > cite? > > ( I agree that “hieroglyphics of preflood Egypt that have as a subject Cain the son of Adam that show men with black slaves” is unlikely, but I want to see some documentation that this is some sort of Christian propaganda.) Well, until someone can actually provide an example of such a claim, it’s going to be hard to prove anything about the claim – you can’t expect anyone to rebut something only vaguely described, right? However, even without seeing a specific example, we can fairly confidently state that any claim about ‘preflood Egypt’ is historically inaccurate, and _most likely_ comes from a viewpoint that values the Christian Bible over any other historical evidence. Do I need to provide a cite for lack of historic evidence of Noah’s flood? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-extant-written-document/522975.md?page=3)