# What is the oldest still extant company? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2002, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002 "2002-11-16T07:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/41 "2002-12-02T22:09:25Z")
I was going to say somewhat the same as Muad’Dib. I.e., what difference does it make if a company keeps the same name, but changes location, products, management strategy, etc.? One of the things I remember fondly from my years in England is the feeling that a long-established company, with whom you’ve done business (and with whom perhaps your parents did business) is still going to be there next time you need them. Contrast that with California, where one has to spend an enormous amount of time finding places to buy clothes, computer equipment, food, books, and other basics, only to discover a couple years down the road that the places have entirely disappeared. Some of the British labeling a la “Established in 1854” is pure advertising hype (who cares that a brand of jam has been around for 100 years?) but when it comes to general merchandise and services, company stability is a nice thing to know. Unfortunately, companies that radically change policies or products are rarely willing to alienate existing customers – so many substantial changes go unremarked. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/42 "2005-03-22T20:53:20Z")
Years ago I remember reading that there is a company in England, purveyors of seafood as I recall, that has existed “from time immemorial”. This epithet was established either by law, or a royal decree. Had I been able to remember the name of that company, this post would’ve been much more interesting, and you all would not be rolling your eyes at me. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/43 "2005-03-22T21:25:42Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Lest we newbie Americans be left out, I offer you the finely wrought [Yuengling](http://www.yuengling.com/) family of fine brewed products. Oldest brewery in the United States of America. Ah yes, my brew of choice! In fairness, Yuengling is the oldest still-extant brewery in the US, I’d be curious to know where/when the first brewery which is long gone was… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/44 "2005-03-22T21:55:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I remember having read an article about an international association of the oldest _family bussinesses_ (owned by the same family since the beginning as opposed to companies whose owners had changed over the centuries). Unfortunately I can’t remember the name of this association. I believe the article you’re refering to is in the Decmeber 18th, 2004, issue of _The Economist_, which I happen to have right here. > [@](#): > > According to the book of Genesis, Enoch (or Henok), son of Cain and father of Methusalah, walked the Earth for 365 years and then ascended to heaven without dying. Inspired by this feat, a club was formed in France in 1981 that took his name. Les Hénokiens is a fraternity of companies that are at least 200 years old, have stayed in the control of one family throughout, are financially healthy, “modern” and are still run by a family member. > > Each year representatives of the 33 member companies, from seven countries, gather for three days of fun and discussion. This year’s host was Ditta Bortolo Nardini, an Italian grappa distillery founded in 1779. The nine members of Britain’s Tercentenarians Club, founded in 1970 for firms at least 300 years old that still have a connection to the founding family, make do with an annual lunch. > > The oldest member of Les Hénokiens is Hoshi, a Japanese inn founded in Komatsu in 718. Run by Zengoro Hoshi, the 46th generation of the family to be in charge, the firm’s motto is unusually practical: “Take care of fire, learn from water, co-operate with nature”. But, according to “Centuries of Success”, published last year by William O’Hara, there is an even older company, also Japanese. Kongo Gumi, founded by a Korean in Osaka in 578, is a builder of Buddhist temples, Shinto shrines and castles–and now also offices, apartment buildings and private houses. Both are family businesses. > > … It also cites the same list you did from [familybusinessmagazine.com](http://familybusinessmagazine.com). ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/45 "2005-03-23T02:27:03Z")
Considering that **clairobscur** ’s post is from 2002, I highly doubt that a 2004 article is what he/she had in mind… (Quick, grab a stake! Zombie thread!) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/46 "2005-03-23T02:39:59Z")
I think that Bass Ale (1777) has the oldest registerd trademark. The red triangle. Nothing compared to other stuff mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/47 "2005-03-23T03:40:35Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > What about prostitution? 😃 Oh, wait, you mean legitimate business…Never mind. Well can you find the oldest continually operating brothel? And let me have the address? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/48 "2005-03-23T18:47:06Z")
> [@OxyMoron](#): > > Considering that **clairobscur** ’s post is from 2002, I highly doubt that a 2004 article is what he/she had in mind… Subscribers always get their copies before they hit the newsstands. ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/49 "2005-03-24T19:34:46Z")
So are we going for a new “oldest still extant thread” with this one? That’d be a neat little bit of self-referentiality. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/50 "2005-03-24T19:39:37Z")
> [@Odinoneeye](#): > > Well can you find the oldest continually operating brothel? > > And let me have the address? 😃 Y’know, I’ve heard of MILFs, but _really…_ ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/51 "2005-03-24T19:54:01Z")
> [@quiltguy154](#): > > Years ago I remember reading that there is a company in England, purveyors of seafood as I recall, that has existed “from time immemorial”. This epithet was established either by law, or a royal decree. The term does have some legal standing. However, I don’t think it could apply purely to the history of a company - it’s more likely to do with some particular right they hold, such as access to particular oyster beds, or mud flats, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002/52 "2005-03-24T20:30:23Z")
I would presume that “oldest still extant company” would equate to “firm that is an unbroken lineal successor of someone or something engaging in business at the earliest date.” That people in Uberunterburg have been engaged in brewing beer since 1240, and there’s a brewery in Uberunterburg, does not operate to make that brewery date from 1240. But if the meisterbrewer in 1240 took on an apprentice in 1262 who ultimately succeeded him, and who took on an apprentice in 1295, etc., and eventually the business was formed into a company in 1768, etc., that would make sense as qualifying. On the other hand, a business may continue in existence while changing its principal product, as with Stora Kopperberg, or the same people making the same thing but moving to a new location: the fourth-generation church organ-builder from Hessen who emigrated to America and continued building organs, can reasonably be said to be continuing his business. Government entities like mints, royal charters like those held by fairs and guilds, etc., don’t qualify as being businesses. Does that definition of “continuing business” make sense as a working definition for getting the answer here? =========== Since the thread began with reference to The Bay as the continuing operation of the Hudson’s Bay Company, I’m wondering which of the other “famous” companies, like the (British) East India Company and the Dutch Eastindia Compagnie, survive today as businesses, and what they are doing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-oldest-still-extant-company/137002.md?page=2)