# What is the origin of 'the straight dope?' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 26, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343 "2008-09-26T15:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/1 "2008-09-26T15:38:17Z")
Note that I did not capitalize it. I know the history of the column, but I’m trying to explain to non-American who is helping with a Staff Report what the phrase means (okay, that the easy part) and where I came from. I’m guessing it’s underworld rgot from the early part of the 20th century, but I don’t want to guess. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/2 "2008-09-26T15:45:28Z")
make that, “argot.” ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/3 "2008-09-26T17:00:10Z")
Here’s what OED has on _dope_ in this sense, with a few of the early cites. > [@](#): > > dope, n. > > 1. Information, esp. on a particular subject or of a kind not widely disseminated or easily obtained; (a statement of) facts or essential details; also, information, a statement, etc., designed to gloss over or disguise facts; flattering or misleading talk. slang (orig. U.S.). > > 1901 ‘H. MCHUGH’ John Henry 77 I’ve known Tommy for a long time, so he feels free to read his dope to me. 1904 W. H. SMITH Promoters iii. 72 Unless you cover your dope with a sort of angel-of-light coating that would fool Gabriel himself, you’ll never get there. 1905 R. BEACH Pardners (1912) i. 26 He handed me the dope: ‘In re Olive Troop Morrow vs. Justus Morroe’. Surprisingly, the earliest cite I can find for _straight dope_ in the OED is 1979. _Straight_, of course, simply means here real, direct, genuine. It’s such a natural adjective to use with dope in this sense that I’m sure the phrase could be found much earlier. > [@](#): > > 1979 ‘A. HAILEY’ Overload IV. viii. 333 Nim, give me the straight dope behind this Yale thing. What went wrong? ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/4 "2008-09-26T17:04:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Surprisingly, the earliest cite I can find for _straight dope_ in the OED is 1979. _Straight_, of course, simply means here real, direct, genuine. It’s such a natural adjective to use with dope in this sense that I’m sure the phrase could be found much earlier. Was this column published under “The Straight Dope” back in 1973? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/5 "2008-09-26T17:25:26Z")
If 1979 is the earliest reference that the editors of the OED can find, they’re not trying very hard. I improved on that in five minutes. The New York Times, Pat Sheedy for Lawson, December 24, 1904. “‘Lawson,’ said Sheedy, 'is giving us some straight dope. He is telling the exact truth as I have seen it all my life.” The New York Times, Books of the Times, November 28, 1934. “At this distance, it looks as it there were silliness on both sides – on Mencken’s for not permitting his suddenly sacrosanct name and talent to be used, and on Rascoe’s for not confronting Mencken over a beer table with a demand for the straight dope.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/6 "2008-09-26T17:31:10Z")
And the Online Etymology Dictionary, has [this](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dope) to say about the origin of the word dope: 1807, Amer.Eng., “sauce, gravy,” from Du. doop “thick dipping sauce.” Extension to “drug” is 1889, from practice of smoking semi-liquid opium preparation. Meaning “foolish, stupid person” is older (1851) and may have a sense of “thick-headed.” Sense of “inside information” (1901) may come from knowing before the race which horse had been drugged to influence performance. Dope-fiend is attested from 1896. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/7 "2008-09-26T17:50:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If 1979 is the earliest reference that the editors of the OED can find, they’re not trying very hard. I improved on that in five minutes. Which supports some criticism of the OED. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > (Roy) Harris criticizes what he sees as the “black-and-white lexicography” of the Dictionary, by which he means its reliance upon printed language over spoken–and then, only privileged forms of printing. He notes that, while neologisms from respected “literary” authors like Samuel Beckett and Virginia Woolf are included, usage of words in newspapers or other, less “respectable” sources holds less sway, though they may actually be more valid in common usage. This could inspire a thread asking if the OED has outlived its usefulness. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/8 "2008-09-26T18:04:00Z")
But how is a reference from an Arthur Hailey novel somehow more respectable than a book review article from the New York Times? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/9 "2008-09-26T18:22:41Z")
The Alex Haley quotation from the OED is really a cite for “straight” in the unevasive or straightforward sense. It’s mere happenstance (based on author word choice) that it was followed by the word “dope”. The earliest quotation in the OED containing the phrase “straight dope” is from 1941: > [@](#): > > 1941 J. JONES Let. 7 Apr. in To reach Eternity (1989) 15 That’s no shit, it’s the straight dope. But that’s from the entry for “no shit”. The OED doesn’t have an entry for the phrase “straight dope” itself. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/10 "2008-09-26T18:55:33Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > If 1979 is the earliest reference that the editors of the OED can find, they’re not trying very hard. I improved on that in five minutes. But the OED is interested in _words_, not phrases. They might mention a phrase while documenting a word, but don’t attempt to track down every combination of words out there. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/11 "2008-09-26T21:37:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > 1807, Amer.Eng., “sauce, gravy,” from Du. doop “thick dipping sauce.” Extension to “drug” is 1889, from practice of smoking semi-liquid opium preparation. Meaning “foolish, stupid person” is older (1851) and may have a sense of “thick-headed.” Sense of “inside information” (1901) may come from knowing before the race which horse had been drugged to influence performance. Dope-fiend is attested from 1896. It’s interesting that “dope” meaning drugs is apparently unrelated to “stupid person”. But I would have thought that “striaght dope” was synonymous with “undiluted medicine”, information being analagous to medicine–something that a strong constitution is required to “swallow” without any “sugar coating”. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/12 "2008-09-26T22:39:20Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > It’s interesting that “dope” meaning drugs is apparently unrelated to “stupid person”. LL Cool J lied to us!!! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![solkoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@solkoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solkoe)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/13 "2008-09-26T23:16:34Z")
My take comes from watching the series _Deadwood_ where they were always dealing with “dope” their word for drugs. “Straight dope” would be the undiluted form of the drug, herion most likely. Getting the straight dope means getting the real thing. I don’t know if there’s anything to this but it sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/14 "2008-09-27T01:30:42Z")
The OED is still one of the most respected reference sources in the world, as it well should be. Something that mammoth doesn’t update itself overnight. The OED is currently updating around the letter “R” if I’m not mistaken. Most entries that haven’t been updated are from before 1989. That precludes the wonderful world of digital electronic newspaper databases, et al. The earliest found cite for “straight dope” meaning the correct information is 11 May 1904 by me. It was in the _Anaconda(MT) Standard_. > [@](#): > > The citizens would gladly send her a basket of flowers if she should give out the straight “dope” regarding the whereabouts of the assassin of Cronin. Note that “dope” is in quote marks, indicating that it was a rather new word. The modifier “straight” was added about this time to the previously used word “dope” which meant _information_, first appearing in the late 1890s referring to horse racing information, usually inside information. Other uses of “dope” in relation to horse racing at this time included _dope sheets_, _dope book_, _dope out_. In all cases, it referred to information about things, usually horse racing. ---
**Author:** ![solkoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@solkoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solkoe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/15 "2008-09-27T01:58:31Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > The OED is still one of the most respected reference sources in the world, as it well should be. Something that mammoth doesn’t update itself overnight. The OED is currently updating around the letter “R” if I’m not mistaken. Most entries that haven’t been updated are from before 1989. That precludes the wonderful world of digital electronic newspaper databases, et al. > > The earliest found cite for “straight dope” meaning the correct information is 11 May 1904 by me. It was in the _Anaconda(MT) Standard_. > Note that “dope” is in quote marks, indicating that it was a rather new word. > > The modifier “straight” was added about this time to the previously used word “dope” which meant _information_, first appearing in the late 1890s referring to horse racing information, usually inside information. Other uses of “dope” in relation to horse racing at this time included _dope sheets_, _dope book_, _dope out_. In all cases, it referred to information about things, usually horse racing. Any ideas on how the word “dope” came to mean information? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/16 "2008-09-27T02:20:35Z")
> [@solkoe](#): > > Any ideas on how the word “dope” came to mean information? The standard explanation involves the term _dope_, meaning an illegal stimulant, used from the 1870s on race horses. This _perhaps_ morphed into using the term to mean information about horses/sporting events by the late 1890s. As more an more books/newspapers are digitized, we get more instances of earlier useage and are more able to surmise a connection. The connection I gave above could always be wrong. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/17 "2008-09-27T04:36:15Z")
The [OED third edition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary#Third_Edition), due out sometime around 2037, is reportedly expanding accepted references to include a greatly expanded variety of printed sources, including such ones as song lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/18 "2008-09-27T07:27:18Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > The [OED third edition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary#Third_Edition), due out sometime around 2037, is reportedly expanding accepted references to include a greatly expanded variety of printed sources, including such ones as song lyrics. And being available some 30 years from now serves us HOW, exactly? Look, I’m all over some people, like me, usually, being a generation or two in the past, but doesn’t that make their pronouncements damned close to useless? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/19 "2008-09-27T08:39:39Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And being available some 30 years from now serves us HOW, exactly? > > Look, I’m all over some people, like me, usually, being a generation or two in the past, but doesn’t that make their pronouncements damned close to useless? It’s projected to be _completed_ in 2037. You can view the current state, right now, online. From the previously-cited Wikipedia article [did you even read it?]: > [@](#): > > New content can be viewed through the OED Online or on the periodically updated CD-ROM edition. It is possible that the OED3 will never be printed conventionally, but will be available only electronically. That will be a decision for the future, when it is nearer completion. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2008, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343/20 "2008-09-27T10:19:28Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Which supports some criticism of the OED. This could inspire a thread asking if the OED has outlived its usefulness. Good luck with that one. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-origin-of-the-straight-dope/465343.md?page=2)