# What is the point of abolishing abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 30, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471 "2024-08-30T16:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/261 "2024-09-03T19:54:00Z")
Yes, please do. And explain how there’s but a discrepancy that protects property more than a woman’s body. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/262 "2024-09-03T19:55:23Z")
I’m not sure what you want me to say, it’s illegal to trespass on someone else’s property. In no state is it legal to kill someone who does so absent extenuating circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/263 "2024-09-03T20:18:59Z")
How about if they refuse to leave? Can’t you call the cops (doctor) to force them to leave? Isn’t the default assumption that you have authority over who is on your property? But somehow not over what is in your body? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/264 "2024-09-03T20:32:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Can’t you call the cops (doctor) to force them to leave? Isn’t the default assumption that you have authority over who is on your property? But somehow not over what is in your body? One aspect of this argument is whether it’s okay to cause the death of the trespasser during the act of removal. To make it more relevant to the abortion debate, consider a situation where you own an island and someone washes up on it. You don’t want him on your island. He says that a boat will come for him in a month. Is it okay to force him off the island by pushing him into the water and have him drown rather than wait a month for the boat to come and get him? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/265 "2024-09-03T20:34:33Z")
So…the baby just goes away in about a month? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/266 "2024-09-03T20:37:41Z")
Perhaps. Feel free to make the time frame whatever works for you. It’s to make the trespasser argument more relevant to the comparison with abortion. If the rescue boat didn’t come for 8-9 months, would it be okay to push the trespasser back into the water? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/267 "2024-09-03T20:43:37Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If the rescue boat didn’t come for 8-9 months, would it be okay to push the trespasser back into the water? Am I obligated to feed and house this trespasser while they wait for rescue? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/268 "2024-09-03T20:47:54Z")
For the purposes of making it similar to abortion, then I suppose you would have to provide nourishment for the trespasser just like in pregnancy. There could be two scenarios. One scenario is that there is plenty of food for the both of you, while in the other scenario there is only food enough for you alone. Oh, I just remembered perhaps a better analogy. There’s a sci-fi story about a one-man spaceship that has a stowaway. In the story, the spaceship only has enough supplies for one person to reach the destination. Tough decisions have to be made about how to complete the journey with two people but only enough food for one. But there could also be a mission where there is plenty of food for two people. When is it okay to jettison the stowaway? (Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the story). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/269 "2024-09-03T20:49:05Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Thinking about late-term abortions is also a way to better understand why some people want to abolish abortion. It’s a useful thought exercise to consider why late-term abortions are thought of differently than early ones. If someone wants to get an abortion because of a non-medical reason like “the delivery date will interfere with vacation plans”, people feel differently about it if it’s in the 1st month versus the 8th month. But why should that make a difference? The procedure is more complicated in the 8th month, but that’s not why people are more uncomfortable with it. > > Certainly late-term abortions are not the norm. If someone wants an abortion, they’d likely get it before then. But there could be many reasons to get a late-term abortion that don’t have anything to do with critical medical need, such as a change to employment, housing, or financial situations; a change in relationship status; a change of mind; a new opportunity; a change of desire to be a parent, etc. It’s all the same reasons to get an abortion early. That’s just right wing propaganda, throwing out theoretical reasons for women to have “late term abortions” (not an actual medical term by the way) that _never actually happen._ Because they want everyone to be thinking about _evil self-indulgent women who deserve to be punished_ for being “baby killers”, not a traumatized or dying woman dealing with a medical emergency. It’s just rhetoric meant to demonize women and excuse tormenting and killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/270 "2024-09-03T20:57:35Z")
Yes, the old she’s just having a bortion at 8 and a half months to fit into her prom dress, wedding dress, bikini, etc. It doesn’t happen and claiming it does is disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/271 "2024-09-03T21:01:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > How about if they refuse to leave? Can’t you call the cops (doctor) to force them to leave? usually but not always. Consider how difficult it can be to evict squatters in certain areas of the country…but in any event having someone removed from your property doesn’t result in their death > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Isn’t the default assumption that you have authority over who is on your property? again, usually yes, but not to the extent where you can kill them for being on your property. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/272 "2024-09-03T21:02:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Oh, I just remembered perhaps a better analogy. I’ve already linked to the most discussed and defended hypothetical that’s been around for half a century, > **[A Defense of Abortion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion)** > > A Defense of Abortion is a moral philosophy essay by Judith Jarvis Thomson first published in Philosophy & Public Affairs in 1971. Granting for the sake of argument that the fetus has a right to life, Thomson uses thought experiments to argue that the right to life does not include, entail, or imply the right to use someone else's body to survive and that induced abortion is therefore morally permissible. Thomson's argument has critics on both sides of the abortion debate, but it continues In "A... [https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm](https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/273 "2024-09-03T21:06:18Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > but in any event having someone removed from your property doesn’t result in their death If it’s winter, it certainly can. But that’s not the problem of the property owner to worry about. At least, not legally. Why does property have stronger legal protection than my body? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/274 "2024-09-03T21:17:20Z")
To get back to the topic of the thread, this inconsistency is why it seems clear to me that the point is regulating female sexuality, and not some abstract rights. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/275 "2024-09-03T21:18:46Z")
Duh, 'cause you’re a _female._ Clearly you have no rights over your body, or protectins of those no- existent rights. Only a male relative or a congress citter has those rights. This is because females are vacuous, self- involved, pea brains, who cannot be trusted to make decisions. Psst, _they might otherwise get powerful. Disproving the comments above. Can’t have that…_ ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/276 "2024-09-03T21:23:39Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Oh, I just remembered perhaps a better analogy. There’s a sci-fi story about a one-man spaceship that has a stowaway. In the story, the spaceship only has enough supplies for one person to reach the destination. Tough decisions have to be made about how to complete the journey with two people but only enough food for one. But there could also be a mission where there is plenty of food for two people. When is it okay to jettison the stowaway? (Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the story). “The Cold Equations”. The hook of the story was that supposedly the launch had exactly enough fuel to slow down and land safely down to the milligram, given the expected weight of pilot and (small but vital vaccines) cargo. Only the pilot could land the ship, the vaccines were needed to keep an entire colony from dying out. The stowaway was innocent and well-meaning, but… It was an early example of what later became the Trolley Problem. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/277 "2024-09-03T21:24:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Why does property have stronger legal protection than my body? It doesn’t, that’s my point. As I noted above, the laws regarding them (where abortion is prohibited) are roughly similar in scope. Deadly force (killing an intruder in the case of real property or abortion in the case of pregnancy) is only allowed when there is a reasonable apprehension or likelihood of serious harm to the person. Real property laws do not allow killing based solely on trespass. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/278 "2024-09-03T21:30:34Z")
A couple more of the things that make it exceedingly difficult for me to ascribe truly beneficent, good faith motivations broadly to those who would restrict or eliminate a woman’s right to bodily autonomy are … -1- Abortion is the end of the line, when a bunch of other precedent things didn’t go optimally. Liberals want to fix those upstream things in order to reduce the demand for abortion. Those same “social determinants” are also factors in gun violence, so liberals advocate measures that – in other countries – help there, too. But here’s the difference: conservatives skip right to the end of the story in abortion, by banning abortion, but they won’t do the same thing (skip to the end) when it comes to gun violence. In other words, discussing guns is entirely off the table. Not only that: they also oppose nearly all efforts to improve the social determinants that contribute to both abortions AND gun violence (and poverty and crime, and…), where the knock-on effects – as witnessed in other advanced-economy nations – are substantial and salutary. -2- Look at the trend of the rate of abortions in the US – pre-Roe, post-Roe, and in the decades since. It’s hard to say in good faith that _either_ the Supreme Court OR the anti-choice movement were looking for a problem to solve: [![Google Photos](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczM0GulMygceoU1XtG5OhgATB_q3bfudDoXBcCfxCbI0pmVmnoSf1B6f3sOwkTQUkll71lhS-V9zxzRMwj1KwFE4C2IR4ChhgkJ3QAQfj83DdkVNwBI=w600-h315-p-k "New item by neil0502") ](https://photos.app.goo.gl/5N12wo8mYvJDUXmF9) NB: I felt like it was okay to bring gun violence into this thread _in this very limited way,_ and hope not to induce a hijack by doing so. MODS: if I shouldn’t have raised the issue here _at all,_ please feel free to hide the text. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/279 "2024-09-03T21:30:49Z")
That’s simply not true. You CAN call the police to have a trespasser removed. Even if the trespasser has no place to go, no protection from the weather, no food. And the trespasser eating your breakfast cereal is less dangerous to you than the fetus growing inside me is to me. Also, the trespasser is unambiguously a human being. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/280 "2024-09-03T21:59:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So…the baby just goes away in about a month? And in the meantime it can stay on the other side of the island. And it’s not affecting your health at all. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Am I obligated to feed and house this trespasser while they wait for rescue? And to do so despite the fact that they may make me puke every day for months, may make me so sick that I may die, may permanently damage some of my organs, and may kill me either while they’re there or when the boat comes to pick them up; and will certainly hamper my movements and disturb my ability to sleep considerably during much of that time? > [@filmore](#): > > There’s a sci-fi story about a one-man spaceship that has a stowaway. In the story, the spaceship only has enough supplies for one person to reach the destination. Tough decisions have to be made about how to complete the journey with two people but only enough food for one. But there could also be a mission where there is plenty of food for two people. When is it okay to jettison the stowaway? (Sorry, I can’t remember the name of the story). _Cold Equations_. (As I’ve been ninja’d on.) Do you remember that the stowaway is jettisoned and dies? And that this is presented as essential? > [@filmore](#): > > But there could be many reasons to get a late-term abortion that don’t have anything to do with critical medical need, such as a change to employment, housing, or financial situations; a change in relationship status; a change of mind; a new opportunity; a change of desire to be a parent, etc. It’s all the same reasons to get an abortion early. Coming back to this: Can you come up with a single confirmed example of someone aborting an eight-month pregnancy, in a fashion that kills the fetus, for any of those reasons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471.md?page=15)