# What is the point of abolishing abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 30, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471 "2024-08-30T16:00:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/461 "2024-09-08T21:09:55Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > You mean because I’m not jumping on the bandwagon of all anti-abortion people are evil oppressors of women? I’m sure that their view on abortion is complex just like mine is. Your “surety” does not assure me. You use their terms and post the public pictures they want the public to see, and I will take it at face value. Their wiring is so deep that you _can’t help_ but use those terms, can you? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/462 "2024-09-08T21:13:31Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > then you’d need to be able to explain why women like these are part of that movement. There are/is a women, right now as I type this, that don’t think women should be allowed to run for political office (despite having run for office herself) and would vote (wait, vote to not be able to vote!!!) to repeal the 19th Amendment. (Oh, and the reason is that ~~Jesus~~ Paul said so.) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/463 "2024-09-08T21:25:50Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > If you went up to the young women in the protest and said they were just trying to oppress and control women, they would just be pushed farther away from changing their mind. If you have the position that all anti-abortion people are trying to suppress women, then you’d need to be able to explain why women like these are part of that movement. There is a trend amongst people of the modern RW toward supporting policies that fuck the supporters over. This con game has been going on for decades, and people sign onto it to counter the establishment elites who, these people have been assured, are the ones fucking them over right now. And if you tried to discuss the issue with them rationally, many of them would ultimately come down on the side of the issue analogous to _I don’t need to wear a seatbelt because I am not going to crash my car_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/464 "2024-09-08T21:30:36Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Their words and actions seem more in line with people who are motivated by feeling like abortion is the unfair ending of life. No it doesn’t. Anti-abortion protestors are well known for being willing to get an abortion themselves; often at the very clinic they are protesting. Which they go right back _to_ protesting. “Their words and actions” are in line with being _liars._ ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/465 "2024-09-08T21:32:05Z")
Or, in a more popular phrasing, ‘Surely the leopards will not eat _my_ face…’ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/466 "2024-09-08T21:38:00Z")
Also; again, motives really don’t matter very much. What matters are actions and the results of those actions. Suffering, tyranny and death created by “well intentioned” people is still suffering, tyranny and death. These people are supporting one of the most vile causes in existence, and any alleged good intentions on their part don’t affect the end results or their own behavior in any way. A difference that makes no difference might as well not _be_ a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/467 "2024-09-08T21:42:46Z")
Basically, “Fucking you over with the best of intentions” is no different than “Boy, are we gonna fuck you over!”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/468 "2024-09-08T21:46:29Z")
Yes, exactly that. It might make the people doing the “fucking over” feel better to pat themselves on the back about how well intentioned they are, but it doesn’t change what happens to their victims. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/469 "2024-09-08T21:46:48Z")
Maybe it’s worth taking a proverbial step back and asking ourselves how much overlap the Venn diagram has between those who oppose(d) (the list is representative, but not exhaustive): - school integration - the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - the Voting Rights Act of 1965 - same-sex marriage - equal protections for LGBTQ+ - abortion - interracial marriage My take would be that the overlap is substantial. I’d further argue that using the term “social conservative” wouldn’t result in much pushback from any of these groups. I think it’s worth asking if _every single one of these groups_ didn’t have a facially tenable argument for their stances on these socially conservative positions. They did. Understanding and accepting that the other side _can sincerely offer an argument that has the thin veneer of credibility and reason_ doesn’t make a position reasonable. Understanding the _profound and manifold implications of_ the position that they hold – particularly after so many “socially conservative at-bats,” just in _my_ lifetime by definition implies that either: - to those advocating the socially conservative position(s), the cause is worth the pain it implies (to others), or - the pain it implies to others is _at least part of_ the underlying impetus for advocating that position Minimizing, invalidating, being dismissive of, or claiming to be ignorant of the real-world harms envisioned by the policies they advocate … to me … simply aren’t credible arguments. Not to me. Not even remotely. At best, it is a stellar example of willful ignorance. And, as I mentioned upthread, I don’t remember a social conservative backlash when Clarence Thomas intimated that we should go after marriage equality and contraception next. Their silence spoke volumes. Since the social conservatives, broadly, tend to sing from the same hymnal, it’s rational to look at _the overlap in the nature of the issues_ even as their stated reasons may differ from issue to issue. IOW: what do each of these issues that bring the social conservatives together all have in common? It’s an important question to ask, and … the answer … ain’t good. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/470 "2024-09-08T21:53:29Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Their words and actions seem more in line with people who are motivated by feeling like abortion is the unfair ending of life. And each and every one of them is free to make a choice that reflects this view. What they are not entitled to do is visit their view on all the rest of the women in the country – of which there is a majority – and force them to live within the constraints of those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/471 "2024-09-08T22:16:12Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Please address the question that is actually being asked in this thread: What is the point of abolishing abortion? @Fretful_Porpentine Gave what the pro-Life movement insists is the point back in post #4. The rest of the thread has been a debate over “What is the _ **real** _ point of abolishing abortion, never mind what those hypocritical liars say it is?”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/472 "2024-09-08T22:17:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > “What is the _ **real** _ point of abolishing abortion, never mind what those hypocritical liars say it is?”. Then I’d say _this_ is the real point of the discussion after all. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/473 "2024-09-08T22:22:47Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > “What is the _ **real** _ point of abolishing abortion, never mind what those hypocritical liars say it is?”. Do you believe that there are _any_ people who hold _any_ positions that might have bigotry, judgment, or intolerance as even a piece of their fundamental motivation, whether consciously or unconsciously? Can societal, cultural, or even generational prejudices influence what we believe, or what stance we might take on a given issue? Can our strong moral positions be influenced by extrinsic forces? Do you believe that people of good faith [NPI] may hold some views for a reason, but that those views may _also_ appeal to them for deeper reasons that they don’t necessarily recognize? Are the only two options _really:_ - total honesty, beneficence, keen self-awareness, and good faith, or - lying and hypocrisy? I’d argue no. I’d argue there’s much more at play in between those two extremes. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/474 "2024-09-08T22:25:36Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > the rest of the women in the country – of which there is a majority This may be somewhat problematic, though: the population pyramids I have seen show that, for the age range of late teens to early forties, there are slightly more men than women. What matters, I guess, is voter demographics, and whether prudish older women are a minority compared to sensible older women when it comes down to the ballot box. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/475 "2024-09-08T22:32:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > This may be somewhat problematic, though: the population pyramids I have seen show that, for the age range of late teens to early forties, there are slightly more men than women. Doesn’t this assume that all the men are pro-forced-birth, though? If prudish older women are a minority, aren’t they offset by men who support women’s right to choose? I suck at statistics, but I do know this: When one of those prudish women has a daughter, niece or even themselves at risk of harm due to a problematic pregnancy, they change their minds about abortion being murder v. medical care on a dime. _Their_ abortion is medical care. Only everyone else’s is murder. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/476 "2024-09-08T22:38:07Z")
It would infer that men are pretty evenly split on the question, that women would be the deciding factor. I am not sure how men land on this, but I tend to think they break slightly for choice. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/477 "2024-09-08T22:38:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I am not sure how men land on this, but I tend to think they break slightly for choice. I think this is true. And women break much more than slightly for choice. Even if they don’t say so aloud. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2024, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/478 "2024-09-08T23:39:40Z")
Except, as has been explained countless times, their actions are in no way consistent with their beliefs. You really believe that embryos and fetuses are human beings? Fine. Then you should be pouring billions, if not trillions of dollars into research to prevent spontaneous abortions, which occur far, far more often then non-spontaneous abortions; You should full-throatedly oppose IVF, and demand that it be shut down; You should support extensive sex education and access to birth control, including the morning after pill, which despite lies to the contrary is not an abortifacient; You should be in favor of extending parental benefits to pregnant mothers; You should term violence that leads to a miscarriage as murder (not all places do so, and in many it’s a lesser charge); You should insist that government documentation and identification begin during pregnancy, not after birth; You should extend child protective services to pre-natal care and domestic abuse of pregnant women; And you should oppose abortion in nearly every conceivable scenario, including rape, incest, and fetuses with conditions that are not compatible with life - after all, we don’t euthanize babies with terminal conditions, do we? To be clear, I think the above are mostly terrible, harmful positions, and I would oppose anyone who advocated for most of them. But I would believe they were sincere when they said that they thought that embryos and fetuses were people. And yet I don’t think I’ve ever heard a “pro-life” person talk about the tragedy of spontaneous abortions, or lament the millions of “people” that are killed by IVF. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2024, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/479 "2024-09-09T01:03:52Z")
Not only spontaneous abortions, what about chimeras? That happens much more often than we realize. That would need to be fixed as well. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471/480 "2024-09-09T03:18:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are not taking a side. It is just a complete coincidence that you and others use the far right’s terminology and argument. What is the far right terminology you’re objecting to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-abolishing-abortion/1006471.md?page=25)