They aren’t forced to raise children they can’t afford. There is adoption.
I like to ask those that are anti-abortion if they are willing to support the children that are a result of their beliefs. Of course they don’t want to, it’s not their problem. They don’t want the hear that their beliefs created the problem.
I think “extraordinary horror” is overstating the experience for most women.
Of course, every woman is different and will vary in how they view what is happening but I think it is safe to say “extraordinary horror” would be an uncommon response to getting an abortion.
Thus the great adoption drives among the major anti-abortion groups…that for the most part don’t exist.
Why not adoption instead of abortion? There are a few reasons:
Why adoption isn’t a replacement for abortion rights | Vox
Why Women Choose Abortion Over Adoption - The Atlantic
And here are seven claims about abortion that just don’t pan out:
7 persistent claims about abortion, fact-checked : NPR
We can’t handle the number of adoptions even if abortion is legal, so what do you think is going to happen if abortion is made illegal?
Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I am male, and I am (in the above statement) applying my own emotional reponse to all women who abort.
I do not speak for any woman, any person, anyone at all who faces this frightful choice. (I use that word, “frightful” intentionally, it is not an easy choice)
I support them in their choice, but it seems my previous post was a little too dogmatic.
Thus, I should apologise to all.
I think you’re still putting your own emotional baggage on it.
To some women - I won’t make a claim about what portion go one way or the ofher, but it suffices to say that they exist - it’s not a ‘frightful choice’ or any kind of ‘horror’. It’s a medical procedure.
… that said, I have never had an abortion. (Nor have my female partners)
I never got the chance, thank god. I never needed to. I am male, so my “uncommon response” would be how I personally (and selfishly) percieve the abortion process, in which that the woman involved and myself handle an unexpected/unwanted pregnancy.
I think “extraordinary horror”, without the quote marks, is appropriate. Your choice of superlative for “fear” is welcome.
Of course, telling them over and over and over again to their face that it is “an extraordinary horror” might affect them somewhat. In fact, if surgery in general was badmouthed the way abortion is we would be in an extraordinarily horrible position.
I think you are correct here.
(Except I had to do a double-take on your reference to me using the words “an extraordinary horror”)
FWIW, despite my comments in this thread, I am actually anti-abortion, but pro-choice. I would like for it to be an option for all women.
But I am not going to be the guy who judges who (or which fetus) lives or dies. That is not my choice to make.
One thing ive noticed is that many pro-life people, especially men, absolutely flat-out do not believe that the pregnancy is relevant. They think all the talk about women wanting control of their body as a pretext: they are sure its not really about that, it couldn’t really be about that, women have been having babies forever, its not a big deal. What women really want, for whatever reason, is to not have a baby after.
If you believe that, then most pro-choice arguments fall apart. We all agree that if you have a child, however you have it, whether or not it is your fault, it is your responsibility. So if you think of the pregnancy as just a blank “pause” in the process, theres no reason to allow abortion, unless maybe rape babies shouldn’t be your responsibility.
This blindness is present even in pro-chpice circles. Ive noticed people who have never been pregnant are much more likely to make argumebts about like, the cost of unwanted babies on society, which I think would be an appalling reason to allow abortions.
You know how other people’s kids grow up crazy fast? Thats 10x more true for other people’s pregnancies.
I’m not complaining at all. Just saying that is how they arrive at their conclusion. Reality is, everyone does that, just maybe about different things.
As a man, I have to agree with you.
Pregnancy fucks you (a woman) up. Hormones, diet, emotions, self-image, it is a shit-show. And it is not like any other experience. It has wondeful times and it has excruciatingly bad times.
So much responsibility to carry the child to term (if that is your choice). So much responsibility to end the pregnancy (if that is your choice.)
Pregnancy should happen to men, too. Let us be incontinent, or constipated. Let us struggle to eat, or over-eat, too. Let us find just driving to a check-up difficult because there is a goddamn baby in our uteri, and fastening the seat-belt is hard. Let’s have swollen nipples, food cravings, worry about our body shape.
Let us be treated like some kind of malleable “oh, can I touch it” model, by random fucking strangers. Oh, god, the fucking know-it-all advice.
Motherfuckers, yes. I am the fucking husband, the parent of that child. I am aware that my sperm did a small part in fertilizing that ovum. And yes I should be proud, that one super-fast sperm belonging to me made it.
But I don’t care. My wife doesn’t care. Every fucking asshole needs to give their opinion. I paid actual medical people who studied for years to give us advice, who the fuck are you, random person to approach us on the street and give random advice?
Impossible, I know.
(@MandaJo - this rant was not directed at you in any way.)
Edit: to the mods, yes, this is well off topic. I felt the need for a rant; and I misplaced it here rather than the Pit.
It would be fascinating to see what would happen if it became medically possible to transplant early-stage fetuses to another woman, and some states tried to mandate “prenatal adoption” laws.
Moderating:
While we appreciate you self-reporting your post, we don’t remove posts and we don’t move threads due to just one intemperate post.
For that reason, I’m going to mildly admonish you to be mindful of the forum you’re posting in before hitting that ‘Reply’ button, and dial it back if you’re not in the Pit. I know you recognize you did misplace this post.
I think the pushback you’ve gotten against this is largely justified.
However, I think it’s important to keep in mind that, about many, many issues, not just abortion, people’s positions are very often based on feeling more than on thinking. And this goes for both sides.
To appreciate the OT’s emphasis on sexual matters, read R.Crumb’s Illustrated Bible, which Crummy figures engage in the most sweaty, vulgar, Crummy sex constantly. All the “And then Jacob knew Leah” passages are shown as wild, desperate naked humping, to the point that the entire thing begins to seem like a non-stop debauchery.
As to the OP, isn’t “The cruelty is the point” sufficient?
On the second part I completely agree with you, but the reason for that is that the official position of the Catholic Church is that contraception is immoral. So, an ostensibly “good” Catholic cannot go around loudly advocating for the widespread availability of contraception without causing friction with the official teachings of their religion.
On the first point however, I strongly disagree. You hear this all the time from pro-abortionists that pro-lifers interest in the fetus ends when it is born and this is simply not true. The Catholic Church has many programs and charities directed to helping single mothers and children in all aspects of their lives. Here is one local to me: Mary’s House: Refugee Single Mothers Program | Catholic Charities Diocese of Cleveland
and there are numerous others, both national and local in scope.
It seems you took both sides in one post. Some posters think you (@Ulfreida) are wrong but you are also right.
What the Catholic church as an institution does isn’t necessarily related to how individual members feel and behave - there was talk some time ago about the empty convent at my former parish being used as a shelter for women and children fleeing domestic violence and the parishioners were outraged. In the end, it didn’t happen but I guarantee you that some of the protestors were at the anti-abortion rallies and marches. Just like the two people I know who are the most vociferously anti-abortion are also the two people I know who are most loudly against their taxes paying for housing, food or medical care for certain people they believe to be undeserving. It might be a coincidence but those two are clearly uninterested in what happens after birth.