# What is the point of CCW permits? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824 "2016-02-11T15:53:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/61 "2016-02-17T17:52:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not a bad idea, but let this become legal and they will hold it once every leap year, from 6:01 to 8:01 AM, in the farthest part of the region, and it will cost $10,000. I was thinking every high school would teach gun safety right after they teach you how to drive a car and put on a condom. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/62 "2016-02-17T17:52:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I like the idea of a cop seeing a guy with a gun and asking them for their CCW and then just moving on without spending a shitload of time looking up whether or not that person is entitled to own a gun in the first place. I guess you could say “well the cop shouldn’t even be asking that guy about his gun” but I can see the benefit of having everyone who is legally permitted to own a gun having ID that shows that they are legally permitted to own a gun. If it’s concealed, the cop won’t be seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/63 "2016-02-17T18:04:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I was thinking every high school would teach gun safety right after they teach you how to drive a car and put on a condom. They dont do the second so dont hold your breath about basic gun safety. The GOP would shit over condom training and the Dems over gun training. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/64 "2016-02-17T23:17:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think don’t think 2 hours falls into the “better than nothing category”? I have a strong preference for limiting guns to people who know enough not to carry them around with your finger inside the trigger guard. I took that 2 hour training I mentioned earlier, you didn’t. It was absurd. They showed a video that played like a 1950’s drivers ed movie. Then there was a 10 question quiz. The quiz and video had nothing to do with each other. The quiz was on Jeff Coopers rules which is fine, but they gave everyone the answers to fill in while we self corrected it. Then you were required to fire 20 rounds on the range. You didn’t have to hit the target at all, just fire the pistol towards it. Might as well been loaded with blanks. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I mean voting is the MOST fundamental right in a democracy and yet we place at least a few hoops between voters and the voting booth don’t we? Says who? And this is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. If you’re talking about having to prove you’re who you say you are and not voting for you’re neighbor, your whining falls on deaf ears. Remember, when buying a gun from a dealer one needs to show ID too. What you haven’t done is shown a significant stat that illustrates major problems of untrained and/or unlicensed gun carriers causing significant problems. There are more and more states going to constitutional carry. Please show me huge problems with that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/65 "2016-02-18T14:40:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If it’s concealed, the cop won’t be seeing it. I should have said gun license. I like the idea of a gun license. CCWs are like half a wall. Its like a maginot chain link fence… with gates. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/66 "2016-02-18T14:47:45Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I took that 2 hour training I mentioned earlier, you didn’t. It was absurd. They showed a video that played like a 1950’s drivers ed movie. Then there was a 10 question quiz. The quiz and video had nothing to do with each other. The quiz was on Jeff Coopers rules which is fine, but they gave everyone the answers to fill in while we self corrected it. Then you were required to fire 20 rounds on the range. You didn’t have to hit the target at all, just fire the pistol towards it. Might as well been loaded with blanks. I’ve taken 2 hour classes that were much better. > [@](#): > > Says who? And this is a Constitutional Republic, not a democracy. Its a democracy. its not a PURE democracy but its a democracy. > [@](#): > > If you’re talking about having to prove you’re who you say you are and not voting for you’re neighbor, your whining falls on deaf ears. Remember, when buying a gun from a dealer one needs to show ID too. Yeah… from a dealer. And why are my arguments whining and your complaints about having to get a CCW not whining? > [@](#): > > What you haven’t done is shown a significant stat that illustrates major problems of untrained and/or unlicensed gun carriers causing significant problems. There are more and more states going to constitutional carry. Please show me huge problems with that. Why? CCW requirements are entirely constitutional and states can enact constitutional laws if they choose, even if they don’t meet with your approval or standards. Just ask the folks who support parental consent and waiting periods for abortions. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/67 "2016-02-19T03:21:02Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I don’t quite understand what the point of a CCW permit system is. If a criminal conceals a weapon and then uses it in a crime his CCW will in no way legally protect him from his actions. So it seems like it serves not to protect the public from concealed weapons, since the criminal will carry their weapon concealed regardless of the law and only reveal it at the moment they wish to commit a crime, rather it acts to limit law abiding citizens from exercising their right to bear arms. In fact it seems to create an advantage to the criminal but ensuring that fewer of their victims will be armed and able to defend themselves. They feel if they have gun than the bad guy will not come up to him and rob or assault him. That what these open carrying groups think. It is it is deterrent for crime not stopping crime. Because in practice if the bad guy was not scared he would concealed his weapons to he got close than draw his weapon before the victim can draw his or her weapon. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/68 "2016-02-19T03:27:13Z")
The OP asked what the point is to CCW permits. I have offered debate points that there basically is no point to them except to make hoops for non-criminals to arm themselves. I have pointed out the inconsistencies of when such a permit is needed, and the lack of data showing that states that don’t require permits have more problems than those that do, and states that don’t require training for their permit have no more problems than those that do. **Damuri Ajashi** , you have only stated a wish list not relevant to debate. You have offered no evidence that states that require permits with or without training have less problems than those that do. Your opinions are valid, but in the wrong forum. Please show me a matrix demonstrating how states that require training for law abiding gun carriers are better off than those that don’t. Also refute my claim that the inconsistencies in when a permit/license is needed is illogical. Why should one need training to carry concealed but not openly? What changes the dynamic when the weapon is covered that requires training that doesn’t exist when the weapon is uncovered? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/69 "2016-02-19T07:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites;19113725 **Damuri Ajashi** , you have only stated a wish list not relevant to debate. You have offered no evidence that states that require permits with or without training have less problems than those that do. Your opinions are valid, but in the wrong forum.[/quote] This is great debates. no? > [@](#): > > Please show me a matrix demonstrating how states that require training for law abiding gun carriers are better off than those that don’t. I don’t know if such a matrix exists but it almost sounds like you are saying that there is really no point to gun safety training. I suspect that any differences are going to be in the accidental discharge column but I don’t know that there is any proof that people who get safety training have accidents at lower rates than people who do not get safety training. In the case of concealed carry, it might also make sense to teach people the standards for when they can and cannot draw and fire their weapon. > [@](#): > > Also refute my claim that the inconsistencies in when a permit/license is needed is illogical. Why should one need training to carry concealed but not openly? What changes the dynamic when the weapon is covered that requires training that doesn’t exist when the weapon is uncovered? I think we should have training in all cases but that’s another topic. I agree that the differences in training requirements between open and concealed carry don’t make a whole heck of a lot of sense unless you think that people who get CCW permit are more likely to carry than just about any other civilian population and is therefore the population that we want to train more than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/70 "2016-02-19T07:44:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think we should have training in all cases And what leads you to think that? Is it a “the sky is falling” knee jerk response to _gasp_ individuals exercising their rights, or can you exhibit stats that show significant numbers in regards to untrained people causing problems while carrying in public? Would you require someone who simply keeps a gun in the home to receive training? Keep in mind, I don’t oppose training, I oppose government mandated training. And the training issue is only a part of the debate regarding permits in the first place brought up by the OP. Going back to the OP there are states that issue CCW licenses/permits that do not require any training to get the license/permit that also allow unlicensed open carry. That is a clear example of the ridiculousness of requiring a permit/license to conceal. If the training mandate is removed, and the license/permit is “shall issue”, what on Earth is the purpose of the permit/license in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/71 "2016-02-19T16:47:23Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And what leads you to think that? Is it a “the sky is falling” knee jerk response to _gasp_ individuals exercising their rights, or can you exhibit stats that show significant numbers in regards to untrained people causing problems while carrying in public? Would you require someone who simply keeps a gun in the home to receive training? Keep in mind, I don’t oppose training, I oppose government mandated training. And the training issue is only a part of the debate regarding permits in the first place brought up by the OP. > > Going back to the OP there are states that issue CCW licenses/permits that do not require any training to get the license/permit that also allow unlicensed open carry. That is a clear example of the ridiculousness of requiring a permit/license to conceal. If the training mandate is removed, and the license/permit is “shall issue”, what on Earth is the purpose of the permit/license in the first place? There are some states that have prohibited person lists that are more expansive than the federal guidelines: [http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms\_ResidentConcealed.shtm#Persons\_Not\_Qualified](http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#Persons_Not_Qualified) I am in favor of a general licensing and registration requirement. I am in favor of that licensing requirement having several classes depending on training and other qualifications such as prior military or law enforcement experience, safety and use of force classes, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/72 "2016-02-20T00:56:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am in favor of a general licensing and registration requirement. I am in favor of that licensing requirement having several classes depending on training and other qualifications such as prior military or law enforcement experience, safety and use of force classes, etc. And your selfish wish list has what to do with the OP? To the OP I present yours and other posts babbling about permits and training without showing one shred of proof that they enhance public safety or don’t infringe on constitutional rights. CCW permit laws are written by politicians that feel the need to control the populace, even when such control has an opposite effect of the stated intended desire. And that’s the answer: Control. Somebody please present evidence that states with permit less carry are worse off than those that require a permit. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/73 "2016-02-21T02:18:23Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > And your selfish wish list has what to do with the OP? Why is it selfish? You know this is great debates, right? You can’t just call other people whiny for advocating for something and you can’t just call people selfish when calling them whiny doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > To the OP I present yours and other posts babbling about permits and training without showing one shred of proof that they enhance public safety So now I’m babbling?:rolleyes: So what you are saying is that in almost every other human endeavor (from workplace to sports to travel), safety training is shown to reduce the incidence of accidents but guns are unique in that safety training will not reduce accidents? There are plenty of studies showing that more people with guns=more gun accidents (I’m not sure they needed a study to reach that conclusion). Why is it so hard for you to believe that safety can reduce the number of those accidents? And having universal licensing is not only about safety, its also about preventing guns from getting into criminal hands. > [@](#): > > or don’t infringe on constitutional rights. Why not? If it is constitutional (and licensing and registration are CLEARLY constitutional), why can’t we do it if we think there is a benefit. The constitution does not (and never has) require that the effects of a law be backed up with scientific certainty. > [@](#): > > CCW permit laws are written by politicians that feel the need to control the populace, even when such control has an opposite effect of the stated intended desire. And that’s the answer: Control. So how do CCW permits reduce public safety? Can you provide evidence of that? If not then can you stop “whining” “selfishly” and “babbling” about your allegedly uninfringable constitutional rights? > [@](#): > > Somebody please present evidence that states with permit less carry are worse off than those that require a permit. Not necessary. I can explain the point behind CCWs without presenting evidence about their safety effect. Just like I can explain the point behind licensing and registration without evidence that they will ever have the effect that I predict they will have. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/74 "2016-02-21T04:01:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why is it selfish? Because how is what you want an answer to the OP??? WGAF what you want? The OP asked what is the point and the point is there is no point other than “control” by those in power at the time such laws are passed. And, at least I, have presented an argument to back that point up, regardless of where I stand on the issue. Neither you nor anyone else has presented\*\* ANY\*\* evidence that licensed/permitted CCW is any better in any extreme to unlicensed CCW. Your opinions are moot. Show me evidence that states that issue CCW licenses/permits are better off than those that obey the constitution and allow CCW without any permit/license. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2016, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/75 "2016-02-21T08:11:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > W > So what you are saying is that in almost every other human endeavor (from workplace to sports to travel), safety training is shown to reduce the incidence of accidents but guns are unique in that safety training will not reduce accidents? Sure- gun safety classes will reduce accidents. But if some states are allowed to require this, they will hold it once every leap year, from 6:01 to 8:01 AM, in the farthest part of the region, and it will cost $10,000. Gun safety courses will simply become another way to stop people from owning guns. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/76 "2016-02-22T15:52:26Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Because how is what you want an answer to the OP??? WGAF what you want? > > The OP asked what is the point and the point is there is no point other than “control” by those in power at the time such laws are passed. And, at least I, have presented an argument to back that point up, regardless of where I stand on the issue. > > Neither you nor anyone else has presented\*\* ANY\*\* evidence that licensed/permitted CCW is any better in any extreme to unlicensed CCW. Your opinions are moot. Show me evidence that states that issue CCW licenses/permits are better off than those that obey the constitution and allow CCW without any permit/license. The thing about great debates is that these debates meander and this debate meandered into a discussion about licensing and safety training generally. All you have presented is an argument. So have I. Sometimes logic IS evidence. Like I said, how is it that safety training reduces accidents in almost every other activity but you need a study proving that safety training would reduce accidents when it comes to guns? Sure there is an inconsistency between open carry and concealed carry but if there is a benefit to safety training, isn’t that an argument for safety training requirements for open carry as well rather than a n argument for getting rid of safety for closed carry because of the inconsistency? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/77 "2016-02-22T15:55:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure- gun safety classes will reduce accidents. But if some states are allowed to require this, they will hold it once every leap year, from 6:01 to 8:01 AM, in the farthest part of the region, and it will cost $10,000. Gun safety courses will simply become another way to stop people from owning guns. There are plenty of states that have licensure requirements and they don’t do this. what makes you think that they will start doing this? Has ANY state done this? If not, then what is the source of your concern? We still have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms and these sort of games will clearly get struck down by the courts. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/78 "2016-02-22T17:00:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are plenty of states that have licensure requirements and they don’t do this. what makes you think that they will start doing this? Has ANY state done this? If not, then what is the source of your concern? > > We still have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms and these sort of games will clearly get struck down by the courts. Every may issue state does this. It may not be as egregiously transparent, but the fact that permits are nearly impossible to get has the same result as holding classes only on leap year full moons where Mars is aligned with Saturn. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/79 "2016-02-23T01:13:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sometimes logic IS evidence. All you have presented for “logic” is your own opinion. The OP did not directly have anything to do with training. The training issue is just an extension of the OP’s point about permits/licensing. My point is that permits/licenses are ridiculous, especially in states such as mine where carry is allowed without permits in several scenarios. And “logic” dictates that on that point I have beaten your brains out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824/80 "2016-02-23T18:57:15Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Every may issue state does this. It may not be as egregiously transparent, but the fact that permits are nearly impossible to get has the same result as holding classes only on leap year full moons where Mars is aligned with Saturn. I thought we were talking about shall issue. If we are talking about NYC CCWs then I agree the rule is there to prevent all but a select few from having a permit. For me, Trump’s CCW in NYC says nothing about his stance on guns and more about how much he has contributed to politicians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-ccw-permits/745824.md?page=5)