What is the point of CCW permits?

[Scumpup]

@running_coach

And yet those people are often unaware of their own faults.
Much the same as most people consider themselves above average drivers.

I figure you overestimate your ability to drive, parent, and consume alcohol. Your ability to handle money is suspect and I’m not at all sure you can be trusted to own a pet. I think your present restrictions on all those things are inadequate and so, because you overestimate yourself, everybody must be further restricted.

[pkbites]

@Cyros

A concealed carry permit gives me the knowledge that the person carrying has gone through a process to confirm his ability to carry safely

No it doesn’t. If someone is carrying concealed how would you know? And if for some reason you did know, you as a private citizen have no right to demand to see a permit or license.

In Wisconsin even I as a law enforcement officer cannot randomly look people up on the data base to see if they they have a CCL. It’s a crime to do so.
Wisconsin 175.60(12 ).

[running_coach]

@Scumpup

I figure you overestimate your ability to drive, parent, and consume alcohol. Your ability to handle money is suspect and I’m not at all sure you can be trusted to own a pet. I think your present restrictions on all those things are inadequate and so, because you overestimate yourself, everybody must be further restricted.

And I’d say you’ve disqualified yourself from carrying by the use of such idiotic arguments and your refusal to accept that some are fucking idiots and shouldn’t own a cap gun.

[Scumpup]

So, overestimation of ability applies only to guns or is it generally to things you would like to restrict? The activities I listed are the source of vast amounts of grief every year. Why shouldn’t you be restricted? We have only your sayso that you are competent and, as you know, people overestimate themselves.

[aruvqan]

@Cyros

Speaking as a non-American, one reason that I would support a licence for concealed carry but none for open carry is that it gives me information I can use to inform my reaction to someone. If a person is open carrying then I am aware of that. I can use what I know about that person and their current behavior to inform how I respond to them. Will their actions cause me to vacate the area, tread lightly, approach them, etc. When they are carrying concealed I lose the ability to make these determinations myself. A concealed carry permit gives me the knowledge that the person carrying has gone through a process to confirm his ability to carry safely (whether the process succeeds in confirming this ability or not is another issue).

Well put.

[DrDeth]

@you_with_the_face

Your mistake is assuming the purpose of CCW is to deter someone who is determined to use a gun in a criminal capacity, in a premeditated way. I think it’s meant to deter people in general from being armed unnecessarily.

It’s often meant simply as a political anti-gun measure, such as in many counties in CA, where you simply cant get a CCW (unless you have politcal pull).

[Bone]

@aruvqan

Well put.

How is it well put if it’s factually untrue? If someone is carrying concealed, you won’t know.

[even_sven]

Obviously you don’t know if someone is carrying concealed.

The point is that CCW rules discourage people without permits from carrying concealed, especially if they are likely to be searched for some reason. If I’m going out to sell drugs or join a riot or otherwise get into mischief, I’m less likely to causally bring a gun with me. That’s a good thing.

[Scumpup]

@even_sven

Obviously you don’t know if someone is carrying concealed.

The point is that CCW rules discourage people without permits from carrying concealed, especially if they are likely to be searched for some reason. If I’m going out to sell drugs or join a riot or otherwise get into mischief, I’m less likely to causally bring a gun with me. That’s a good thing.

Wait…you think criminals set out to do those other things in defiance of the law but are deterred by carry permit laws?

[ZPG_Zealot]

@Scumpup

Wait…you think criminals set out to do those other things in defiance of the law but are deterred by carry permit laws?

Probably not, but I think I hefty percentage of the largely law-abiding population with not the best judgment can be deterred from carrying a weapon that makes it very easy to make a mistake that will alter multiple lives in a matter of seconds by CCW permits. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in groups. I would rather the stupid people not have an excuse to carry around firearms.

[pkbites]

@even_sven

If I’m going out to sell drugs or join a riot or otherwise get into mischief, I’m less likely to causally bring a gun with me. That’s a good thing.

You’ve got to be fucking kidding! Is this a “whoosh”?

You’re not really this ignorant, are you?

[even_sven]

@pkbites

You’ve got to be fucking kidding! Is this a “whoosh”?

You’re not really this ignorant, are you?

Absolutely not.

Your average low-level street criminal and associates get searched relatively often. Getting arrested periodically and the occasional stint in jail is just a part of life. They expect to be arrested and plan for it.

I’m not talking about drug lords or people planning armed robbery. I’m talking about the kid that delivers small amounts of drugs or the guy managing a couple prostitutes. These guys aren’t idiots. They know what will get them off with a slap on the wrist and what will lead to larger charges, and they don’t want to end up with real charges if they don’t need to.

It’s not like the only options are “law-abiding citizen” or “follows no laws and doesn’t give a damn”.

[Scumpup]

I expect pkbites has a vastly greater experience with the demographic in question than you. Are you really, really certain that you want to lecture a veteran LEO about the ways of criminals?

[pkbites]

@Scumpup

I expect pkbites has a vastly greater experience with the demographic in question than you. Are you really, really certain that you want to lecture a veteran LEO about the ways of criminals?

The slags do take precautions to not get detected by police while carrying. Those precautions don’t usually work out for them so well. CCW and felon in possession are extremely common charges. even sven is either kidding or ignorant.

[Scumpup]

I spent some time working with that group myself. Thinking things through is not generally their strong suit. Youth typically makes them even weaker in that respect.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@even_sven

Absolutely not.

Your average low-level street criminal and associates get searched relatively often. Getting arrested periodically and the occasional stint in jail is just a part of life. They expect to be arrested and plan for it.

Isn’t drug dealing a felony? Doesn’t that make it illegal for them to have a gun at all?

I’m not talking about drug lords or people planning armed robbery. I’m talking about the kid that delivers small amounts of drugs or the guy managing a couple prostitutes. These guys aren’t idiots. They know what will get them off with a slap on the wrist and what will lead to larger charges, and they don’t want to end up with real charges if they don’t need to.

It’s not like the only options are “law-abiding citizen” or “follows no laws and doesn’t give a damn”.

Of course there are many shades of law abiding but they cross a pretty bright line when they are convicted of a felony. That is when they can’t carry a gun at all and it seems like you are talking about felons. And if they aren’t felons then they should have no difficulty getting that CCW.

I am not aware of any state that has CCW licenses on a shall issue basis that says no to people that might deal drugs but have never been caught at it.

I am also unaware of any may issue states that don’t abuse that discretion to keep guns away from law-abiding citizens.

I support CCW licenses because I think the licensing procedure should be used for ALL gun owners. There should be a little box on your driver’s license next to the box for organ donor that says whether or not someone is legally allowed to possess a gun. I’d love to see everyone take a 2 hour gun safety class (perhaps in high school after we teach them about different method of birth control and how to drive a car), they won’t have to handle a gun any more than these kids have to handle a condom. But it might be useful to have a national safety class.

[pkbites]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I’d love to see everyone take a 2 hour gun safety class.

:rolleyes:

Years before HR218 I got a Florida non-resident CCW because at that time Floridas was recognized by the most states. The required training at the time was 2 hours and it was ridiculous.

Any gun safety training worth a snot is going to be longer than 2 lousy hours. But why should anyone need any hoops to jump through to exercise a right?

I didn’t see anyone here point out an epidemic of problems related to untrained people lawfully carrying guns. And where is the slew of problems in states that have constitutional carry with no license/permit needed?

[DrDeth]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I’d love to see everyone take a 2 hour gun safety class …

Not a bad idea, but let this become legal and they will hold it once every leap year, from 6:01 to 8:01 AM, in the farthest part of the region, and it will cost $10,000.

[UltraVires]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

If they’re illegally carrying, it’s not a pretext search. As gun owners are always telling us, only law abiding citizens would be deterred by a licensing requirement.

I am not following you. A cop wants a reason to search a car, but has no probable cause to do so.

State #1 which requires a CCW: Cop sees concealed weapon. Asks for permit. Driver says he doesn’t have a permit, but is not otherwise prohibited from owning a gun. Driver is arrested and car is searched.

State #2 which does not require a CCW: Cop sees concealed weapon. No law has been violated to the officer’s knowledge. No arrest occurs.

Officers runs CIB check on driver which shows previous felony and/or domestic violence conviction. Driver is arrested and car is searched.

The desire to search the car in State #1 or State #2 is not motivated by the presence of a weapon, but used as a justification for a search. Much like primary enforcement seat belt laws and cell phone laws are used as a pretext to stop a vehicle to do more investigating to find probable cause for a search of the car.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@pkbites

:rolleyes:

Years before HR218 I got a Florida non-resident CCW because at that time Floridas was recognized by the most states. The required training at the time was 2 hours and it was ridiculous.

Any gun safety training worth a snot is going to be longer than 2 lousy hours.

So you think don’t think 2 hours falls into the “better than nothing category”? I have a strong preference for limiting guns to people who know enough not to carry them around with your finger inside the trigger guard. I don’t see why we can’t have a class about it in high school.

But why should anyone need any hoops to jump through to exercise a right?

Why should anyone have to jump through any hoops to exercise the right to vote?

I mean voting is the MOST fundamental right in a democracy and yet we place at least a few hoops between voters and the voting booth don’t we?

I like the idea of a cop seeing a guy with a gun and asking them for their CCW and then just moving on without spending a shitload of time looking up whether or not that person is entitled to own a gun in the first place. I guess you could say “well the cop shouldn’t even be asking that guy about his gun” but I can see the benefit of having everyone who is legally permitted to own a gun having ID that shows that they are legally permitted to own a gun.