# What is the point of college fraternities? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379 "2014-11-23T01:52:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/81 "2015-01-23T14:45:51Z")
Best edit reason ever. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/82 "2015-01-23T14:47:44Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > But but but… that’s the part I actually _admire_ them for! Like this? —[U-M frat suspended amid allegations of resort vandalism](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/22/fraternity-suspended-amid-allegations-ski-resort-vandalism/22192461/) > [@](#): > > A University of Michigan fraternity accused of causing thousands of dollars in vandalism last weekend at a ski resort has been suspended by its national office and its members could face criminal charges. $50,000 damage to 45 rooms over one weekend. There’s your vice and excess. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/83 "2015-01-23T14:48:48Z")
Hey, nobody complained when John Bonham did it. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/84 "2015-01-23T14:49:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Like this? —[U-M frat suspended amid allegations of resort vandalism](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/22/fraternity-suspended-amid-allegations-ski-resort-vandalism/22192461/) > > $50,000 damage to 45 rooms over one weekend. There’s your vice and excess. Noooo, that’s straight up vandalism. Not hedonism. Wrong -ism. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/85 "2015-01-23T15:02:21Z")
> [@Squall Winds](#): > > The OP is pretty much on the money. > > Fraternities may have started being semi-respectable organizations, but nowadays they’re just elitist organizations where those privileged enough to buy family, friendship, and brotherhood all unite to work to ensure even more privilege for themselves. > > Occasionally throwing chump-change (relatively speaking) to charitable organizations doesn’t count, any more than Bumfuck City M.C. doing a “we’re gonna throw five Benjamins towards cancer research” excuse ride. > > When I see a fraternity that: > > 1. Does not charge those who cannot afford it, > 2. Isn’t into hedonistic cultures of excess and vice, > 3. Truly cares about their community (by doing service–both with organizations and by independently being there for the downtrodden every day they possibly can, WITHOUT cameras around for photo ops), and > 4. Is welcoming even to the most outcast of outcasts, > > then I will change my opinion from “they should all be banned”. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So… you want to ban all organizations except maybe the Shriners? Alpha Phi Omega might qualify under those rules. But, yeah, an organization whose primary activities consist of fostering an atmosphere of exclusion, encouraging excessive alcohol use and facilitating underage drinking perhaps has no good reason to be allowed on campus or to concentrate those toxic values in a shared living arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/86 "2015-01-23T15:08:59Z")
None of those are the primary activities of _most_ college fraternities. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/87 "2015-01-23T15:18:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > When and where I went to school, they were a coterie of aggressive douchebags. I mentioned upthread about their behavior towards women and minorities, particularly when with their brothers. > One of their charming Greek traditions at that school was to have their pledges steal toilet paper and cleaning supplies from the classroom buildings and the dormitories during pledge week. They had quotas to meet so that the frat wouldn’t have to spend money on those things for the balance of the academic year. > When their douchebaggery extends to hooliganism and theft, I don’t see a pressing need to have the organizations on campus. Nobody cared then, or cares now, about them yanking each other’s cranks over their belief that they are some kind of elite. Being a douchebag is not a crime. And IME, assholes find each other. Take away their letters, rituals, and mansions; and a lot of people would still engage in all the same douchebaggery. The biggest cunts on my campus were not frat boys, they were the athletes-- date rapes, property damage, drunken violence, widespread academic dishonesty. The frat boys were harmless, and the sorority girls were sweet, cute, hyper-social girls from nice families. Certainly, there were some assholes and bitches, but I never saw any harms that would justify a ban. The only valid criticism I’d acknowledge is that it’s very superficial: rushees meet members for maybe 5 minute conversations over a couple nights, then the members vote to give you a bid, if you accept it, you’re a pledge and you’re in at the end of the pledge term (usually one semester), unless you fuck up or quit (de-pledge). Typically, houses are made up of people who make good first impressions. It’s superficial, but if people want to subject themselves to that, they should be allowed to. Don’t country clubs have a similar interview process? (similar in a superficial sense, not meeting every member) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/88 "2015-01-23T15:26:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > None of those are the primary activities of _most_ college fraternities. The comment was relevant to Squall Winds’s list of criteria. Whether it’s a few or most or all is of no matter to me. Come up with a set of standards then enforce those standards. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/89 "2015-01-23T15:26:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Alpha Phi Omega might qualify under those rules. > > But, yeah, an organization whose primary activities consist of fostering an atmosphere of exclusion, encouraging excessive alcohol use and facilitating underage drinking perhaps has no good reason to be allowed on campus or to concentrate those toxic values in a shared living arrangement. Bingo. For me, though, it’s mostly about the exclusivity. Universities should be environments of **in** clusion, and places where anyone who is willing to use their brain and put in the effort should be fully welcomed. Having exclusive clubs of severely concentrated privilege not only doesn’t contribute anything to that goal; it actively takes away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/90 "2015-01-23T15:27:19Z")
Severely concentrated privilege? ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/91 "2015-01-23T15:28:53Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The biggest cunts on my campus were not frat boys, they were the athletes-- date rapes, property damage, drunken violence, widespread academic dishonesty. I’m not sure about where you live, but here, the Venn diagram of “athletes” and “frat boys” overlaps so much it’s almost just one circle. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/92 "2015-01-23T15:30:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Like this? —[U-M frat suspended amid allegations of resort vandalism](http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/22/fraternity-suspended-amid-allegations-ski-resort-vandalism/22192461/) > > $50,000 damage to 45 rooms over one weekend. There’s your vice and excess. That was a Jewish fraternity. Maybe it’s the “Jewish” and not the “fraternity” that’s relevant? Or maybe some young men have a proclivity for drunken stupidity that is independent of both religion and membership in social organizations? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/93 "2015-01-23T15:34:48Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Being a douchebag is not a crime. And IME, assholes find each other. Take away their letters, rituals, and mansions; and a lot of people would still engage in all the same douchebaggery. 1. Some douchebaggery is criminal, when it results in theft or vandalism or some other kind of crime. 2. And even if it’s not criminal … Would you want your university to have a KKK house? 3. Arguably, allowing douchebags to formalize their douchebag values in an organized institution and having them live together is a formula for intensified douchebaggery. > [@](#): > > The biggest cunts on my campus were not frat boys, they were the athletes-- date rapes, property damage, drunken violence, widespread academic dishonesty. Athletes similarly are often supported by an institutional structure and encourage to behave as an exclusive social group. That should be discouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/94 "2015-01-23T15:35:36Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Being a douchebag is not a crime. And IME, assholes find each other. Take away their letters, rituals, and mansions; and a lot of people would still engage in all the same douchebaggery. Theft, assault, rape, and harassment _are_ crimes and the frat rats with whom I attended college were guilty of all those things. Assholes may well find each other, but I see no reason to make it easier for them to congregate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/95 "2015-01-23T15:37:19Z")
> [@Squall Winds](#): > > I’m not sure about where you live, but here, the Venn diagram of “athletes” and “frat boys” overlaps so much it’s almost just one circle. Then your college or university would be unusual. Few collegiate athletes (particularly in the revenue sports) have time for fraternity activities. ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/96 "2015-01-23T15:39:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Severely concentrated privilege? Yes. The vast, vast majority of frat boys are rich. No, not even “middle class”–rich\*. That is built into the system itself, because these organizations charge astronomical amounts in membership fees, with no exceptions (that I know of) for those who cannot afford them. Most of them are white, so the white privilege is strong amongst them. As far as the black ones go, they are almost always made up of the elite of the local AA community, as well. - As far as I’m concerned, an individual making over $65,000/yr or a family making over $75,000/yr is rich. “Middle class” starts at $25K individual/$35K family. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/97 "2015-01-23T15:39:39Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > That was a Jewish fraternity. Maybe it’s the “Jewish” and not the “fraternity” that’s relevant? Or maybe some young men have a proclivity for drunken stupidity that is independent of both religion and membership in social organizations? It doesn’t matter to me either way. If a particular social organization is creating mayhem then action ought to be taken against it. And if a particular kind of social event—say a house party—has the tendency to encourage dangerous activity, perhaps it ought to be subject to certain kinds of control. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/98 "2015-01-23T15:45:49Z")
> [@Squall Winds](#): > > Yes. > > The vast, vast majority of frat boys are rich. No, not even “middle class”–rich\*. That is built into the system itself, because these organizations charge astronomical amounts in membership fees, with no exceptions (that I know of) for those who cannot afford them. > > Most of them are white, so the white privilege is strong amongst them. As far as the black ones go, they are almost always made up of the elite of the local AA community, as well. > > - As far as I’m concerned, an individual making over $65,000/yr or a family making over $75,000/yr is rich. “Middle class” starts at $25K individual/$35K family. Sorry, dude, I’m not going to waste time explaining things to someone who thinks “middle class” is a useful descriptor when your definition is “twice the poverty line.” ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/99 "2015-01-23T15:47:38Z")
> [@Squall Winds](#): > > I’m not sure about where you live, but here, the Venn diagram of “athletes” and “frat boys” overlaps so much it’s almost just one circle. Not the Big Ten universities I’ve attended and visited: Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana U, Penn State, and last and least, Ohio State. Most athletes have neither the time nor the inclination, (and sometimes not the money) to pledge and participate in events. Also, their teammates are their “brothers.” Plus, if parties and pussy are the draw, do you think Tom Brady was ever turned away from a frat party when he was at Michigan? Athletes get the perceived benefits of frats without the hassles of dues, boring meetings, and clean up. If you could wear your frat jacket or Ohio State Football jacket out on the town, which one are you going to grab? ---
**Author:** ![DoggyDunnit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@DoggyDunnit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoggyDunnit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379/100 "2015-01-23T15:53:59Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Not the Big Ten universities I’ve attended and visited: Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana U, Penn State, and last and least, Ohio State. > > Most athletes have neither the time nor the inclination, (and sometimes not the money) to pledge and participate in events. Also, their teammates are their “brothers.” Plus, if parties and pussy are the draw, do you think Tom Brady was ever turned away from a frat party when he was at Michigan? Athletes get the perceived benefits of frats without the hassles of dues, boring meetings, and clean up. > > If you could wear your frat jacket or Ohio State Football jacket out on the town, which one are you going to grab? I guess the above poster who said where I went was unusual is correct, then. The university I attended lacked a football team (they did have basketball, baseball, et cetera–basically everything but football). Pretty much all of the athletes I knew of were also in a frat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-college-fraternities/705379.md?page=6)