# What is the point of "I don't care who started it"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533 "2016-01-29T00:52:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/41 "2016-01-29T17:35:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > First, the advice of non-parents on parenting is always appreciated to its full value. I’d say more, but I have an angry email I need to send Neil DeGrasse Tyson about astrophysics, based on what I learned from single Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when I was a kid. > > Second, if a parent uses this response in an actual occasion of bullying, they’re not parenting correctly, you’re right. It’s usually pretty obvious within a few seconds whether it’s bullying or bickering. Bickering is much more common, and both parties are aggrieved, and both parties acted poorly. In bullying, one party is acting far too innocent and wide-eyed, and the other party looks withdrawn and frightened. > > If it’s not obvious–if bullying seems a distinct possibility–the parent should investigate further. But that’s an entirely different conversation. > > Third, your suggested alternate strategy–making absurd and impractical threats–is exactly the sort of excellent parenting strategy that non-parents love to suggest :). Oh, now you’ve done it. How dare you suggest a non-parent’s advice and knowledge isn’t just as valid as that of a parent? They were children once too you know! Unlike us parents, who apparently were actually sent to Earth by aliens for the sole purpose of not listening to our own children. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/42 "2016-01-29T17:35:57Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > Sometimes I think parents forget how it feels to be kids and to have their feelings and thoughts about small, every day matters pretty much dismissed a dozen times a day by every adult they interact with. Not just told they can’t get what they want, but that what they feel think doesn’t matter/isn’t cared about. Better to get them started early on dealing with the real world, before they become ‘that guy’ who can’t keep a job because he wanted JUSTICE for every petty thing during the day, and who blows a lot of money on a hopeless court trial because he JUST KNOWS he’s RIGHT and OMG why won’t they listen to me? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/43 "2016-01-29T17:36:44Z")
Quite frequently the cause is trivial and you don’t feel like holding a Warren Commission inquiry to find out who really started it. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/44 "2016-01-29T18:28:37Z")
It’s like trying to resolve problems in the Middle East. There’s always a reason someone committed an atrocity. Even if you go back hundreds or thousands of years, there’s always someone disrespecting someone else. Kids can be the same way. Who started it? The parents did when they had more than one kid. The seeds of conflict were planted then. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/45 "2016-01-29T18:36:37Z")
I told you to STOP FIGHTING, not to START fighting with ME. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/46 "2016-01-29T19:16:10Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > Sometimes it is also an acknowledgement that neither party is an innocent victim. This, very much this. Kids will fight over anything. _ **Anything** _. I tried to prove a point once by asking mine what the color the sky was. They argued about it. Completely missed the point until later, when I reminded them. I also used the “I’m stopping this” ploy when the kids were going through their tattling phase. There’s a period where they will come to you with every little grievance. They have to be taught which things need a grown up and which things they really can work out on their own. Coming to me every 5 minutes because your sister doesn’t want to play the same board game you do doesn’t cut it. I’ve also been known to follow it up with, “It’s time for the park” (or a walk or whatever). Give them a way to work off some energy. If they’re really being mule-headed, then the exercise takes the form of chores. Floors don’t vacuum themselves! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/47 "2016-01-29T20:12:02Z")
Case in point: recess today. A kid came running up: “Billy’s hurt!” I went over to check on Billy. He told me Frank had let him play with a stick, and when Frank asked for it back, he’d asked if he could play for it longer, and then Frank had starting punching him in the face. I called Frank over, because this could well be either bullying or (more likely) Frank just losing his shit in a way that’s totally unacceptable. After much conversation, it turns out that Billy hadn’t asked to borrow the stick, refused to give it back when asked–and Frank “hitting him in the face” was really “grabbing his shoulder with one hand, for leverage, while he tried to get the stick back with the other.” Frank was still more wrong, and got in more trouble, but it was nowhere near as one-sided as Billy had made it out to be. And to be fair, Billy had totally started it, but that’s not what it sounded like at first, and that wasn’t the most important part of the scenario. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/48 "2016-01-29T20:44:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Case in point: recess today. A kid came running up: “Billy’s hurt!” I went over to check on Billy. He told me Frank had let him play with a stick, and when Frank asked for it back, he’d asked if he could play for it longer, and then Frank had starting punching him in the face. > > I called Frank over, because this could well be either bullying or (more likely) Frank just losing his shit in a way that’s totally unacceptable. After much conversation, it turns out that Billy hadn’t asked to borrow the stick, refused to give it back when asked–and Frank “hitting him in the face” was really “grabbing his shoulder with one hand, for leverage, while he tried to get the stick back with the other.” > > Frank was still more wrong, and got in more trouble, but it was nowhere near as one-sided as Billy had made it out to be. > > And to be fair, Billy had totally started it, but that’s not what it sounded like at first, and that wasn’t the most important part of the scenario. What about the stick? Who got to keep it? Because if you didn’t ascertain exactly who has rightful possession of the stick, you clearly failed in your teaching duties (he said smugly, aware of his own lack of any teaching experience whatsoever, but confident his experience as an elementary school student 40 years ago is sufficient qualification to judge you). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/49 "2016-01-29T20:46:28Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > What about the stick? Who got to keep it? Because if you didn’t ascertain exactly who has rightful possession of the stick, you clearly failed in your teaching duties (he said smugly, aware of his own lack of any teaching experience whatsoever, but confident his experience as an elementary school student 40 years ago is sufficient qualification to judge you). NOBODY KEEPS THE STICK! What kind of fool do you think I am? (Another kid, trying to stand up for Billy, or Frank, I forget exactly what fake names I gave them, had grabbed the stick and snapped it in half anyway. This is the level of vengeance-minded actors I’m dealing with.) ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/50 "2016-01-29T20:49:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > We’ve all been there before we had kids. Reality doesn’t cooperate with our plans that easily. Well I’ll try at least. Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/51 "2016-01-29T20:54:45Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” Nobody ever said “you’re both equally at fault,” and focusing on who initiated usually misses the point, **in exactly the way that kids usually miss the point**. If Billy refuses to hand a stick back, and Frank tackles Billy and punches him in the face, does that get Frank out of trouble, since Billy initiated? Of course not: both kids initiated their own bad actions, and both are responsible for those. And often the bad actions are too trivial to punish; rather, the best thing is to get the kids to figure it out themselves, come up with a way to solve their own problems peacefully and respectfully. If there’s actual bullying that’s not the case, but the majority of the time, it’s good for the kids to get that conflict-resolution experience in. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/52 "2016-01-29T20:59:19Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” Every parent in the thread is smiling pityingly. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/53 "2016-01-29T21:02:28Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” The one thing being a parent will teach you is humility. You may try, you may succeed some of the days. But if you are human, other days the TV will be the babysitter (the only people I know who were successful at no TV babysitter were the ones that got rid of a TV when their kids arrived), you will not be successful in raising trilingual children, you will discover that when kids are overtired, you can’t always tell, and they may have a screaming tizzy fit that makes you look like the world’s worst parent in the middle of Target. And if you do manage to be perfect, you will discover your spouse or your mother undercuts all of your efforts to be the perfect parent and lets your kids drink Coke at 8pm before bedtime or gets your 10 year old son really violent video games. (My mother had my daughter addicted to coffee before she was out of diapers. It was a small price to pay for endless babysitting.) I would really recommend to anyone who wants to seriously try this that they get rid of soda, white bread, electronics (from TVs to Smart Phones), live off of five hours of interrupted sleep every night and spend an extra half an hour every day in the car before they try and conceive. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/54 "2016-01-29T21:08:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > First, the advice of non-parents on parenting is always appreciated to its full value. I’d say more, but I have an angry email I need to send Neil DeGrasse Tyson about astrophysics, based on what I learned from single Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when I was a kid. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/55 "2016-01-29T21:28:47Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” Bwahahahaha! Hoo. Heh, heh. Good one. And this right here is an illustration of why it often doesn’t matter who “started it”. The broken hand is generally far more serious than the slap or the stick grab or hair pulling. It’s the escalation that makes for crazy time. In your situation, I would NOT be saying “good job, next time don’t break his hand.” The correct response is, “what have I told you about fighting? Next time, get a grownup!” Also, “you are grounded until Christmas.” Good grief, when is breaking a bone ever appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/56 "2016-01-29T21:33:04Z")
I just wonder about the inevitable result. I know someone whose parents constantly used this line, but his elder brother was bullying him. Constantly. Violently. He still has scars from the abuse. It’s all very well to say that both started it, and most of the time it’s true but I’ve also seen bad versions of it. ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/57 "2016-01-29T21:54:33Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > I kinda of agree with you - and am a non-parent. > > I expect it means “I just want quiet” - justice, fairness, all of that doesn’t matter. Parent just wants peace and figures it’s small, petty, doesn’t matter and whatever kid didn’t start it this time probably started it last time. Parent’s desire for peace trumps all those lofty goals. It means “behave” with no consideration (or no caring) that one party just might be legitimately wronged. I think you could accurately change your first line to: I kinda of agree with you, \*\*proving \*\*I’m a non parent" Kids fight. If you think you’re actually going to get to the bottom of every single fight siblings have, then you’re in for a big surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/58 "2016-01-29T22:00:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I just wonder about the inevitable result. I know someone whose parents constantly used this line, but his elder brother was bullying him. Constantly. Violently. He still has scars from the abuse. > > It’s all very well to say that both started it, and most of the time it’s true but I’ve also seen bad versions of it. Yeah–again, it’s really important to distinguish between using this approach when shit is petty, and using it when there’s something serious going on. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/59 "2016-01-29T22:02:01Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” And sometimes, it doesn’t matter who started it. Case in point: Squeaky, who is six, went into Fang’s room and took some of his Legos. In retaliation of this terrible theft, Fang, who is twelve, twice Sqeaky’s size, and should fucking well know better, punched his little brother in the stomach. At that point, who started it is completely irrelevant. There is no scenario where a twelve year old should punch a six year old in the stomach. At all. Verdict: Squeaky (who shouldn’t steal from his brother) lost electronics time for an afternoon. Fang lost all of his legos. All of them. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/60 "2016-01-29T22:07:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I just wonder about the inevitable result. I know someone whose parents constantly used this line, but his elder brother was bullying him. Constantly. Violently. He still has scars from the abuse. > > It’s all very well to say that both started it, and most of the time it’s true but I’ve also seen bad versions of it. That’s not inevitable. That’s the result of terrible parents who should be able to see that’s going on. What we’re talking about is a typical situation where Bobby started it the last time, Billy started it this time, and Bobby’s going to start it the next time, and it goes on like that for years. These things aren’t simple to work out. I once punched my brother in the back of the head when we were on vacation to get him back for punching me in the back of the head a year earlier on the previous vacation. He ratted me out and I got in trouble so I had to punch him again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533.md?page=4)