# What is the point of "I don't care who started it"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533 "2016-01-29T00:52:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/61 "2016-01-29T22:22:51Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Well I’ll try at least. > > Point is, I won’t dismiss it out of hand. I’ll gladly admit there will probably be a majority of fights and scuffles I won’t be able to solve, but the lesson to them will never be “you’re both equally at fault no matter who initiated”. Even as I’m punishing them, I hope to be a good enough parent to impart the lesson that Kid 1 is being punished because I believe him to be at fault. If Kid 2 only defended himself, I’ll say “good job, but next time don’t break your brother’s hand, a slap will do” You really think there are times when breaking a siblings’ hand is a more or less acceptable response to a provocation? 😕 Thing is, kids quarrel all the time over petty shit. Sometimes, one kid cruelly bullies another, but that stuff is much less common (and usually, reasonably detectable). As a parent, it is usually far more important to keep petty shit from spiraling out of control (maybe leading to “broken hands”), than decoding who is “at fault” in a typical case of sibling squabbling - usually a hopeless task: both sides typically quite sincerely believe they are in the right; both sides typically have given some sort of offence. ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/62 "2016-01-29T23:41:39Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I just wonder about the inevitable result. I know someone whose parents constantly used this line, but his elder brother was bullying him. Constantly. Violently. He still has scars from the abuse. > > It’s all very well to say that both started it, and most of the time it’s true but I’ve also seen bad versions of it. There’s assuredly a whole lot of unfortunate parenting going on in scenarios like that, but the use of this particular phrase isn’t really the issue. There certainly are parents who use “I don’t care who started it” essentially as a way to say “I don’t give a fuck what’s going on here - you two little buggers figure it out yourself because I can’t be arsed to parent”, but the vast majority of parents aren’t using it that way. Mostly it’s just an acknowledgement that probably neither kid is innocent in the scenario and that the behavior of all parties involved has exceeded the bounds of what’s acceptable - which is a thing all parties involved ought to have known already. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/63 "2016-01-30T01:26:20Z")
Variant on the theme: “I don’t care WHO did it, it needs to not happen again.” No, I am not a parent. I used that one on two co-irkers I supervise recently. Dunno who got too lazy to actually put things where they go (instead, said items were dumped NEAR their destination), don’t really care, just need them to do their damn job so I don’t have to get griped at by leads in the destination area. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/64 "2016-01-30T02:21:25Z")
My mother’s version (and she was completely channeling her dad on these occasions"“I don’t care who started it, I’m ending it. NOW.” The funny thing is Mom isn’t domineering, or scary, or ever laid hands on us. Just when she channelled her dad, disciplining one or several of his 10 children she scared my brother and I into extreme good behavior. One time she said “If you two don’t knock it off, someone is going to leave. And I think it will be me.” And she left. For hours. (My brother and I were probably 14 and 10 then so it wasn’t a case of abandonment) My dad was working out of town at the time and usually phoned at 9 pm every night he was away. As it got closer to 9 pm and no sign of mom, my brother and I were figgiting in the kitchen, looking out the window, staring at the phone. “When dad calls, you talk…” my brother said. When the phone finally rang and we talked to dad, telling him about our day, etc. dad said “Well I guess Mom isn’t home yet, I know she was going to the movies with your aunt tonight, maybe they had coffee after.” I think our collective sighs started an avalanche in another hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/65 "2016-01-30T02:24:52Z")
A phrase I’ve used more than once is “Don’t make me get involved” If I get dragged into petty squabbles, the only winner is going to be me. This is a great motivator to resolve the problems themselves. The kids outgrew knock down drag outs years ago, and get along rather well. Go to each other’s games, hang out, play cards and games together, go to the same college. Are they perfect? Nope. I’ve seen them chase each other with a broom at a full run and death in their eyes. I’ve seen them not talk to each other for days. Overall, I think they have pretty healthy sibling relationships. But I was an only child, so what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/66 "2016-01-30T21:33:42Z")
-\*The answer right now is _“maybe”_. If you want a different answer right now, it is _“no”. \* Would you like to ask the question again?_ ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/67 "2016-01-30T22:28:13Z")
As people have already said, there’s a massive difference between ‘A is picking on B’ and ‘A and B are bickering’. If you’re paying even the slightest attention to the general intonation of the interaction, you can tell exactly which one is going on. If A is picking on B, then no, you absolutely can’t dismiss it with ‘I don’t care who started it.’ But if they’re bickering, who started it isn’t the point. The point is both of them learning how to not do that shit. In our house, one of the most common versions goes like this: A starts playing with a mutual toy. Instantly B HAS TO HAVE that toy. B lunges at A demanding ‘Can I have a turn?’ A clutches the toy and shrieks ‘NOOO! It’s MINE!!’ B yells ‘No it’s NOT!! It’s OURS!!’ and grabs the toy. A screams like a freaking banshee and possibly whaps B. Nobody ‘started’ that. Both of them handled it all wrong. They’re perfectly capable of handling the exact same situation right, and usually do. So there’s no point in me getting dragged into the who-started-it bullshit. A lot of the time I just say ‘Hey, both of you, work it out,’ and they do, but sometimes it gets past the point where they can sort it themselves, and I have to step in. My version is ‘I don’t care who started it, I care what each of you can do differently to stop it happening again.’ And then each of them has to come up with what she could have done differently. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/68 "2016-02-01T19:25:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Nobody ever said “you’re both equally at fault,” and focusing on who initiated usually misses the point, **in exactly the way that kids usually miss the point**. If Billy refuses to hand a stick back, and Frank tackles Billy and punches him in the face, does that get Frank out of trouble, since Billy initiated? Of course not: both kids initiated their own bad actions, and both are responsible for those. > > And often the bad actions are too trivial to punish; rather, the best thing is to get the kids to figure it out themselves, come up with a way to solve their own problems peacefully and respectfully. If there’s actual bullying that’s not the case, but the majority of the time, it’s good for the kids to get that conflict-resolution experience in. In that case, the kids would get different punishments according to how badly they behaved. Maybe one will be grounded, and the other will be forced to write pedantic phrases like “Solipsism did not cause the death of Socrates!” 100 times. > [@Shodan](#): > > Every parent in the thread is smiling pityingly. > > Regards, > Shodan Hey, my kids will be perfect! Perfect! ;p > [@Dangerosa](#): > > The one thing being a parent will teach you is humility. You may try, you may succeed some of the days. But if you are human, other days the TV will be the babysitter (the only people I know who were successful at no TV babysitter were the ones that got rid of a TV when their kids arrived), you will not be successful in raising trilingual children, you will discover that when kids are overtired, you can’t always tell, and they may have a screaming tizzy fit that makes you look like the world’s worst parent in the middle of Target. > > And if you do manage to be perfect, you will discover your spouse or your mother undercuts all of your efforts to be the perfect parent and lets your kids drink Coke at 8pm before bedtime or gets your 10 year old son really violent video games. (My mother had my daughter addicted to coffee before she was out of diapers. It was a small price to pay for endless babysitting.) > > I would really recommend to anyone who wants to seriously try this that they get rid of soda, white bread, electronics (from TVs to Smart Phones), live off of five hours of interrupted sleep every night and spend an extra half an hour every day in the car before they try and conceive. I’m not trying , nor will I expect, to be perfect. I’m simply taking one variable that I see being overused, the “both sides are punished equally because I’m tired of you kids fucking around”, out of the equation. I’ll probably lose my temper, or punish incorrectly, or believe one kid when I should have believed the other. > [@ddsun](#): > > Bwahahahaha! Hoo. Heh, heh. Good one. > > And this right here is an illustration of why it often doesn’t matter who “started it”. The broken hand is generally far more serious than the slap or the stick grab or hair pulling. It’s the escalation that makes for crazy time. In your situation, I would NOT be saying “good job, next time don’t break his hand.” The correct response is, “what have I told you about fighting? Next time, get a grownup!” Also, “you are grounded until Christmas.” Good grief, when is breaking a bone ever appropriate? I was exaggerating for effect ;p > [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > And sometimes, it doesn’t matter who started it. > > Case in point: Squeaky, who is six, went into Fang’s room and took some of his Legos. In retaliation of this terrible theft, Fang, who is twelve, twice Sqeaky’s size, and should fucking well know better, punched his little brother in the stomach. At that point, who started it is completely irrelevant. There is no scenario where a twelve year old should punch a six year old in the stomach. At all. > > Verdict: Squeaky (who shouldn’t steal from his brother) lost electronics time for an afternoon. Fang lost all of his legos. All of them. That’s a good and fair punishment which takes into account the situation. I don’t mean to imply that whoever initiated is always at fault, there will be differing punishments based on the situation. In this case I think you did well and I’d hope to model that type of parenthood. > [@Malthus](#): > > You really think there are times when breaking a siblings’ hand is a more or less acceptable response to a provocation? 😕 It was a joke, an exaggeration for effect. > [@Malthus](#): > > Thing is, kids quarrel all the time over petty shit. Sometimes, one kid cruelly bullies another, but that stuff is much less common (and usually, reasonably detectable). As a parent, it is usually far more important to keep petty shit from spiraling out of control (maybe leading to “broken hands”), than decoding who is “at fault” in a typical case of sibling squabbling - usually a hopeless task: both sides typically quite sincerely believe they are in the right; both sides typically have given some sort of offence. In those cases, I hope I can give a punishment equal to the offense ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/69 "2016-02-01T21:35:31Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > In that case, the kids would get different punishments according to how badly they behaved. Maybe one will be grounded, and the other will be forced to write pedantic phrases like “Solipsism did not cause the death of Socrates!” 100 times. Wait–so instead of having the kids talk to each other and try to figure out how they can resolve their conflict themselves, what positive social skills they can practice, you’re going to mete out dreary punishments unrelated to the offense? Wow–if that’s what you come up with given two days to reflect on the situation, are you really confident enough that you’d outperform parents in the spur of the moment? Much to learn you have, young Padawan. Edit: to be entirely and completely clear, the point of punishment is to civilize the feral animals that children often are. Punishment is very often not the best tactic for achieving this goal. “I don’t care who started it” is useful EITHER when the next move is a skills-building move, like I describe above, or when the next move is to the liquor cabinet, and the kids are in the way. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/70 "2016-02-01T23:09:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wait–so instead of having the kids talk to each other and try to figure out how they can resolve their conflict themselves, what positive social skills they can practice, you’re going to mete out dreary punishments unrelated to the offense? No no, like I said, I’m all for doling out punishment on a case-by-case basis. Boring writing is just an example I was thinking of because I was thinking about Bart Simpson’s chalkboard gag ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/71 "2016-02-01T23:39:48Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > pissing on electronics A child who is doing this to a sibling’s belongings needs a STAT admission to the nearest inpatient psychiatric facility. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/72 "2016-02-02T00:33:43Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > A child who is doing this to a sibling’s belongings needs a STAT admission to the nearest inpatient psychiatric facility. What if the other one did it first? ---
**Author:** ![depocali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@depocali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/depocali)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533/73 "2016-03-04T16:25:09Z")
I think it is important to note that when disciplining children there are different “stages”, just as in real life. When I come in and tell my two bundles of joy to stop it, and that I really don’t care who started it, it is equivalent to when the cops are called to an altercation. YOU STOP NOW, YES ALL OF YOU, YES NOW, NO ONE GETS TO THROW A LAST PUNCH. Once that is done and each one has piped down a bit, you can probe, inquire, and see if there was anything else behind the incident. 99% of the time there isn’t and all parties quickly agree to drop it, as consequences for all will be meted. The 1% where something really happened you will get a better idea by questioning each individually after they have had some chance to cool their heels. Yes justice matters, but when you initially get involved you are not the judicial system, you are a cop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-i-dont-care-who-started-it/744533.md?page=3)