# What is the point of punitive exams **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 8, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789 "2011-06-08T21:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/21 "2011-06-09T21:03:21Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Are you saying my dad is a sadistic prick? > > Dad’s reasoning is that engineers need to know what they’re doing fully, and wild-ass guesses will get people killed. So, no wild-ass guesses on his exams. Exams are a shitty model of the real world of any job, though. In no situation will you have to rely solely on the contents of your own brain, with no ability to research a problem through the internet, book, coworkers, or superiors. So, why didn’t your dad do away with exams altogether, if he’s so hip on teaching from an industry perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/22 "2011-06-09T21:25:04Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > They actually used something like this in a downstate Illinois prison. Prisoners who had good behaviour got ONE point each day. If they had an infraction they lost FIVE points. And everyone in their block lost an additional point as well. > > You can guess how well this worked out 🙂 Probably got someone shanked within a day or two. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/23 "2011-06-09T21:38:05Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Are you saying my dad is a sadistic prick? > > Dad’s reasoning is that engineers need to know what they’re doing fully, and wild-ass guesses will get people killed. So, no wild-ass guesses on his exams. I don’t know your dad, but it’s possible. (I keed!) If you have a 10 question test, and the passing score is getting 2.5 questions right, perhaps the problem isn’t the students? Weed out classes sucked. Forcing a civil engineer to take EE and Thermo as weed out classes sucked doubly so. Having my gpa sink or swim on nothing more than the statistically random performance of the class as a whole? That’s not cool, either. ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/24 "2011-06-10T01:09:43Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > If you have a 10 question test, and the passing score is getting 2.5 questions right, perhaps the problem isn’t the students? You still haven’t explained what the “problem” is in this scenario. The exam questions are hard, so the grades are scaled accordingly. > [@](#): > > Weed out classes sucked. Maybe, but having a weed-out class is more the decision of the department or university as a whole, rather than the particular professor. On the other hand, they can serve a purpose, namely, they can let a student know early on that being a Physics major just isn’t going to work out for them. > [@](#): > > Forcing a civil engineer to take EE and Thermo as weed out classes sucked doubly so. This is a fair point. What I hated in college was that, _as a math major_, I was forced to take 4 non-math courses in the physical sciences. This was in addition to the college-wide general education requirements that included physics/chemistry. > [@](#): > > Having my gpa sink or swim on nothing more than the statistically random performance of the class as a whole? That’s not cool, either. On one hand, this is how every class ever is graded. On the other hand, the really standard science courses (in math, this would be calculus) don’t change that much from semester to semester, either in terms of content or average student performance. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/25 "2011-06-10T01:25:00Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > Makes me wonder, if he was a God of thermo, why was he teaching a 100 level class at a State University? Because he was a god-damn idiot. By trying so hard to be an asshole, he created an exam that could not distinguish between a ‘B’ student and one who just picks one letter all the way through. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/26 "2011-06-10T01:27:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Because he was a god-damn idiot. By trying so hard to be an asshole, he created an exam that could not distinguish between a ‘B’ student and one who just picks one letter all the way through. Well he certainly wasn’t being an ambassador for thermo. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789/27 "2011-06-10T01:31:31Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > On one hand, this is how every class ever is graded. On the other hand, the really standard science courses (in math, this would be calculus) don’t change that much from semester to semester, either in terms of content or average student performance. That is true. You are just dealing with student sampling there which should be really consistent from semester to semester unless there are some radical shifts in the student population. Class enrollments don’t just bounce around randomly among different groups from year to year. It wouldn’t be cool if the MIT kids suddenly enrolled in Backwards State U. causing all the former student’s grades to fall but that doesn’t happen. Universities can be all about the love of learning and all of that but they are also competitive in many classes. They have to be. There are an awful lot of doe-eyed freshman that show up thinking they will become a physician or an engineer when it isn’t going to happen for most of them if only because of the available slots ahead of them. It is best to identify the most promising ones early and send the others down another path sooner rather than later. The best tests you can design follow a bell curve with a median score of 50% because it gives you the best possible resolution among all scorers. It doesn’t tell you much about how well the really good ones will do if many students are piled into the 80 - 90%+. You can still give reasonable grades based on really hard tests while leaving plenty of room for the truly outstanding to show what they can do. Those tests are hard to design properly however so you don’t see them everywhere but it is the general formula for standardized tests like the SAT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-punitive-exams/584789.md?page=1)