# What is the point of selling someone cocaine only to immediately bust them for possession? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377 "2013-11-20T21:02:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/21 "2013-11-21T02:52:21Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That probably wasn’t known when they were entrapped. > 🙂 If you provide pinball machine parts while telling them they’re nuclear bomb components, and they believe you, they might be idiots :). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/22 "2013-11-21T03:48:45Z")
Isn’t this one of the guys that wanted to drug test food stamp recipients? I think you need a different test case. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/23 "2013-11-21T03:55:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Isn’t this one of the guys that wanted to drug test food stamp recipients? > > I think you need a different test case. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/24 "2013-11-21T04:20:20Z")
A dog-and-pony show for people too stupid to realize that the War on Drugs has been the biggest waste of resources in American history, and an empirical failure in all regards. _Yay! They caught a bad guy! Goooooo Cops!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/25 "2013-11-21T04:31:27Z")
In general these types of cases are scripted to allow the police an easy way to show the defendant committed ALL elements of whatever the crime is in issue. I didn’t read the details of this case, but that is why they do these controlled situations. In the terrorism cases mentioned above - they have gone so far as to give the person an actual detonation device. They actually tell the person something like “use this cell phone and call this number to detonate the bomb” or “press this button when you want to blow up the building”. Then they can put in the arrest warrant and show at trial “At 10:55 am the defendant was observed dialing the phone number which was actually a prepaid cell phone monitored by SA Smith who indicated he received a call at the exact time the subject had indicated he would call to blow up the IRS building.” Then some defense attorney has a much harder time arguing he was just doing it for a thrill and never had the intent needed. Same thing with the drugs. Not sure what the elements are for possession, but you can be sure the cops orchestrated it so he would hit on all of them. Not entrapment and as others have mentioned - it is MUCH better to have cases go down like this - then try and monitor someone when they try and find a “real” hit man [hint - the guy you are meeting in the van to kill your husband/wife - he is really a state police office - don’t worry - he will do it for cheap], buy drugs from a real drug dealer (and then have to worry about arresting both people which makes things more dangerous), or the terrorist example. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/26 "2013-11-21T14:12:10Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Still, it strikes me as surreal - there would not have been a crime unless and until the cops gave him the dope. And thank goodness for Madame Curie – [if she had never lived, we wouldn’t know a thing about radium.](http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/107-hypothesis-contrary-to-fact) Your claim is fallacious – there would have been a crime, done at a slightly different time and aided by a real cocaine dealer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/27 "2013-11-21T14:18:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And thank goodness for Madame Curie – [if she had never lived, we wouldn’t know a thing about radium.](http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/107-hypothesis-contrary-to-fact) > > Your claim is fallacious – there would have been a crime, done at a slightly different time and aided by a real cocaine dealer. …ETA after time expired: I see my point has been more than adequately discussed already. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/28 "2013-11-21T21:50:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There is something wrong with the legislative decision making process that made possessing a relatively small amount of drugs a serious enough offense to justify this level of legal enforcement. Two days ago, [Len Bias Would’ve Been 50 Today](http://deadspin.com/5988431/len-bias-still-makes-everyone-crazy/1466821092/@tcraggs22). This was headline news back in 1986, especially in Washington, DC and Boston. > [@](#): > > ``` > *Immediately upon returning from the July 4 recess, Tip O'Neill called an emergency meeting of the crime-relate committee chairmen. Write me some goddamn legislation, he thundered. All anybody up in Boston is talking about is Len Bias. The papers are screaming for blood. We need to get out front on this now. This week. Today. The Republicans beat us to it in 1984 and I don't want that to happen again. I want dramatic new initiatives for dealing with crack and other drugs. If we can do this fast enough, he said to the Democratic leadership arrayed around him, we can take the issue away from the White House.* > > ``` > > “In life,” Baum writes, “Len Bias was a terrific basketball player. In death, he would become the Archduke Ferdinand of the Total War on Drugs.” “legislative decision making process”, indeed. And Nancy Reagan had the “Just Say No To Drugs” thing going on, also. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/29 "2013-11-21T21:57:12Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Two days ago, [Len Bias Would’ve Been 50 Today](http://deadspin.com/5988431/len-bias-still-makes-everyone-crazy/1466821092/@tcraggs22). Why didn’t someone important, like Jimmi Hendrix cause such a political outcry? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/30 "2013-11-21T22:18:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Why didn’t someone important, like Jimmi Hendrix cause such a political outcry? > 🙂 I get the :), but seriously, people looked at this like a wake up call. A rock star ODs? Happens all the time. Bias, who played just outside DC at Maryland and was on the pages of _The Washington Post_ and local TV before 24-hour sports coverage on cable became ubiquitous, was regarded as a perfect physical specimen–Coach K has said the two players that he’s seen in the ACC that stood out on a higher level than anyone else were Bias and Jordan–and the thinking was if lines of coke could kill Bias, well, coke could kill anyone. Politically, you have Tip O’Neill’s hometown and DC directly involved as the story unfolded on the front pages of their newspapers and on the local newscasts. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/31 "2013-11-28T14:33:30Z")
As someone adamantly opposed to the War on Drugs, and in favor of legalization of pretty much everything, what I react to is this ridiculous notion that we are going to help society by criminalizing end users. Make recreational drugs cheap and freely available, and the entire chain of production–along with the cost of enforcing interdiction–will collapse. I doubt that either the coca farmers in Colombia and Peru, or any of the traffickers along the way, are conducting business to help a Congressman enjoy a nice high. They are in it for the money; not providing a social service that happens to be illegal. But so are the enforcement agencies and their employees in it for the money. It’s a job. And the War on Drugs is a huge industry, highly beneficial as an employment stream to both drug- and enforcement-side employees. There is no point in busting anyone for possession of anything they intend to use for personal recreation, be it cocaine or a vibrator toy. As for entrapment? For things I do think we should be warring against, I sorta like the idea. Terrorism, e.g., as mentioned above. I think it’s one of the best ways to keep the riff raff from pulling off anything big. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/32 "2013-11-28T15:04:12Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Make recreational drugs cheap and freely available, and the entire chain of production–along with the cost of enforcing interdiction–will collapse. I would add tax them and use the money to fund clinics, and teach the Peruvian farmers to grow useful things like tomatillos and peppers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/33 "2013-11-28T22:11:49Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I would add tax them and use the money to fund clinics, and teach the Peruvian farmers to grow useful things like tomatillos and peppers. 🙂 So here’s a recent blog post on taxing marijuana: [What’s The Best Way To Tax Marijuana? It Depends On What You Want](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/11/22/246743018/whats-the-best-way-to-tax-marijuana-it-depends-on-what-you-want) It looks at taxing to discourage use versus generating revenue. > [@](#): > > The bottom line for policymakers is clear: If you want people to consume less of something, make the tax more obvious. If you want to just collect more money, make it less obvious. > > But, Goldin says, policies often don’t follow these rules. “Soda taxes, candy taxes — this is an area where policymakers have really screwed up if they’re trying to get people to drink less soda,” he says. > > … > > Last year, Colorado voters legalized recreational marijuana, partly because backers promised that a tax on marijuana would help fund schools. > > Colorado decided to use both kinds of taxes for marijuana: A 15 percent tax collected during production (that adds to the posted price the consumer sees), and a 10 percent sales tax (that doesn’t show up until the moment of purchase). > > Dan Pabon, a state representative who helped create Colorado’s marijuana taxes, says lawmakers there talked about a lot of ways they could tax pot. In the end, they split the difference. > > “We wanted to make sure marijuana paid for itself,” he says. > > Pabon says the point of the taxes is not to discourage people from smoking — it’s to raise money to regulate the marijuana trade and help fund schools. If that’s the case, Goldin says, they might have been better off with a straight sales tax that doesn’t show up until the customer gets to the register. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/34 "2013-11-28T22:38:30Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > So here’s a recent blog post on taxing marijuana: > > [What’s The Best Way To Tax Marijuana? It Depends On What You Want](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/11/22/246743018/whats-the-best-way-to-tax-marijuana-it-depends-on-what-you-want) > > It looks at taxing to discourage use versus generating revenue. Thanks, dasmoocher. > [@](#): > > Pabon says the point of the taxes is not to discourage people from smoking — it’s to raise money to regulate the marijuana trade and help fund schools. If that’s the case, Goldin says, they might have been better off with a straight sales tax that doesn’t show up until the customer gets to the register. Why? Is it an easier tax to levy? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/35 "2013-11-28T23:45:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks, dasmoocher. > > Why? Is it an easier tax to levy? I think the take home message was that customers balk at taxes added to the cost of the product when they are aware of it, but don’t really care about point of sale tax. > [@](#): > > Economists, given that they are economists, have traditionally assumed that it doesn’t matter when the tax is added to the price. Whether people see the tax reflected in the price of the candy when they grab it off the shelf, or whether the tax is added at the cash register, like sales tax, shouldn’t make a difference. > > As it turns out, though, where the tax shows up matters quite a bit. “Consumers tend to pay more attention to taxes that are included in the posted price than taxes added on at the register,” says Jacob Goldin, an economics researcher at Princeton. For a legislative point of view, I don’t know much about how the tax is applied. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/36 "2013-11-29T05:44:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And thank goodness for Madame Curie – [if she had never lived, we wouldn’t know a thing about radium.](http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/107-hypothesis-contrary-to-fact) > > Your claim is fallacious – there would have been a crime, done at a slightly different time and aided by a real cocaine dealer. When I first suggested Gaudere’s Law I was thinking not just of grammar mistakes but of a broader definition to include beautiful examples of irony such as this. **Bricker** is committing the exact same error he is accusing (with cause) **KarlGauss** of having made. It simply does not logically follow that Representative Radel would have ended up buying cocaine elsewhere. He might have found God or been hit by a bus first or something. Certainly it is extremely likely that he would have purchased more cocaine but being likely to commit a crime is not a crime. Also there can be significant differences in outcome for similar crimes. Penalties for cocaine possession vary depending upon in which jurisdiction a crime is committed. Even if the Representative were going to commit a different crime he is not being accused of that crime but of one that would not have been possible without police cooperation. One thing to keep in mind in discussing entrapment is the need to discount the simplistic conception that “good people” do good things and “bad people” do bad things. Psychology tells us that choices are dependent on the situation. I recall a story of an attractive young female officer who went undercover and later busted the person who thought he was her boyfriend for buying drugs for her at her request. I don’t know if that really happened but would you want to be prosecuted for the foolish illegal things you might have done as a young person while trying to get laid? Say someone is really upset with their mother and is sitting in a bar and falls into a conversation with some tough who offers to throw Mama from a train for some quick cash. That someone might agree in that moment to pony up the funds but that doesn’t mean that if that chance meeting hadn’t taken place Mama would have to watch her back. Life isn’t simple and the law should reflect that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/37 "2013-11-29T07:16:08Z")
I’m not sure we can base a workable legal system around the concept of waiting around to find out if criminals “really mean it” when they break the law, before we arrest them. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/38 "2013-11-29T07:26:35Z")
They sold him the cocaine. With no cops there is no crime. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/39 "2013-11-29T07:43:51Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > They sold him the cocaine. With no cops there is no crime. Yeah, you said that already. [Here’s a story](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-07-31/news/bs-md-ci-contract-killer-fbi-20120731_1_contract-killer-undercover-fbi-agent-drug-dealer) about an undercover police sting that put a professional hitman behind bars. This is the third time he’s been charged with murder - hopefully, this one will stick. Do you think it would be better if the cops waited until he killed again before they arrested him, on the off-hand chance that he might wake up the next day with a sudden, new found respect for human life? ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377/40 "2013-11-29T17:33:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, you said that already. When someone misses the point it bears repeating. And since you’ve ignored it a 2nd time let me restate again my objection to cops creating crimes to arrest people for. > [@](#): > > [Here’s a story](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-07-31/news/bs-md-ci-contract-killer-fbi-20120731_1_contract-killer-undercover-fbi-agent-drug-dealer) about an undercover police sting that put a professional hitman behind bars. This is the third time he’s been charged with murder - hopefully, this one will stick. > > Do you think it would be better if the cops waited until he killed again before they arrested him, on the off-hand chance that he might wake up the next day with a sudden, new found respect for human life? I’m not saying that there aren’t dangerous people out on the street. I’m not saying that law enforcement shouldn’t work to keep them from killing innocents. I’m just concerned lest police lead people into crimes. I guess if I was on the jury in Antonio McKiver’s trial I would carefully scrutinize the situations the authorities set up to see if they might have led the defendant along. Which then makes me a hypocrite since I would be accepting the same situation I objected to in the cocaine bust. Hurm. Looks like I’m more in the “sheesh it’s just coke” camp than in the “police stings are evil” camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-selling-someone-cocaine-only-to-immediately-bust-them-for-possession/674377.md?page=1)