# What is the point of teaching kids set theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 18, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955 "2019-10-18T14:03:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/21 "2019-10-18T21:55:23Z")
“Set theory” is, unsurprisingly, a vast subject. Basic set theory, like basic logic, seems pretty useful as a part of modern education. The study of improper forcing less relevant in primary school. ETA: nothing intrinsically wrong with New Math, but a shitty textbook will screw up any subject. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/22 "2019-10-18T21:59:58Z")
It’s always interesting for me to see how often people refer to Venn diagrams when discussing and explaining things far from the world of math. In Medicine, the trainees appeal to them everyday (often explicitly) when they try to put together people’s symptoms, signs, and investigations in order to come up with a diagnosis. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/23 "2019-10-18T22:20:18Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I’m pretty much mathematically illiterate, and have the high school transcripts to prove it. Set theory is pretty much the ONLY part of post-arithmetic math I understood.\* > > \*I believe I also learned that the sum of all the interior angles of a polygon can’t exceed 360 degrees, but I’d need to look that up. Without looking it up I’d have said the sum of the interior angles of a convex polygon is 180 times (the number of sides minus two). Or did I miss a joke there? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/24 "2019-10-18T22:20:34Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > ETA: nothing intrinsically wrong with New Math, but a shitty textbook will screw up any subject. We beat the Russkies, didn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/25 "2019-10-18T22:20:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I first was taught set theory as a part of th New Math in 1965, so it was obviously taught us so we could beat the Russkies. Duh! Same here, down to the year. And I agree that it was the Sputnik-driven desire to raise up every American kid to be a scientist or engineer. Richard Feynman (Nobel physics laureate, and science education visionary) thought it was silly to teach set theory so widely. He thought the concepts could be taught without the new terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/26 "2019-10-19T02:19:37Z")
Teaching set theory provides a really good vehicle for teaching a raft of important skills. Problem solving, reasoning, logic, using tools to solve problems. Set theory with Venn diagrams is highly visual and accessible. There is no doubt that new math took set theory further, and started to use element such as cardinality of sets as an underpinning for teaching the nature of numbers and arithmetic. Whether this had any pedagogical value is more dubious. I saw it is 3rd grade and had to wait until university level set theory to see it again. Set theory is par of popular culture in at the level of Venn diagrams. I’m sure it has had a real impact on general problem solving and reasoning skills in the populace. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/27 "2019-10-19T08:40:35Z")
I cannot help but feel someone started to design a math curriculum and asked someone who won a Fields medal “what are the most basic concepts of math?”. The answer is correct of course, For a given value of “basic”. 🙂 I think we would be better served with more practical approach. Why would you talk about set theory with people who cannot divide 2 by the square root of 2? (as my math teacher was fond of demonstrating) I feel the nuts and bolts of math are neglected in favor of “basics” that are way to advanced. Most people cannot work a logarithmic notation but know what a Venn-diagram is. I feel that is the wrong way round. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/28 "2019-10-19T08:51:45Z")
But, I hope, no one is suggesting dropping the basics of mathematics in favor of more set theory. The idea is to learn about Venn diagrams _in addition to_ the multiplication table, square roots, logarithms, and differential equations. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/29 "2019-10-19T12:22:46Z")
Like my friend dropzone, I was taught the [New Math](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math) in the early 60s. Unlike dropzone, I struggled with math ever since. The problem was ( from the linked article:) > [@](#): > > \*\*Parents and teachers who opposed the New Math in the U.S. complained that the new curriculum was too far outside of students’ ordinary experience and was not worth taking time away from more traditional topics, such as arithmetic. The material also put new demands on teachers, many of whom were required to teach material they did not fully understand. \*\*Parents were concerned that they did not understand what their children were learning and could not help them with their studies. In an effort to learn the material, many parents attended their children’s classes. In the end, it was concluded that the experiment was not working, and New Math fell out of favor before the end of the decade, though it continued to be taught for years thereafter in some school districts. In my case, the “New Math” was suddenly the entire curriculum and basic arithmetic was out. Mrs. Wagner was, in retrospect, in way over her head and I was lost. My math skills never recovered. It took me three tries to get through Algebra 1 in high school. I hit a math wall. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/30 "2019-10-19T12:27:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > But, I hope, no one is suggesting dropping the basics of mathematics in favor of more set theory. The idea is to learn about Venn diagrams _in addition to_ the multiplication table, square roots, logarithms, and differential equations. This is exactly what happened to me in 3rd grade ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/31 "2019-10-19T12:42:05Z")
One should avoid confusing arithmetic with mathematics. Set theory at early schooling (I got it in 3rd grade) is very basic. It certainly is not displacing logarithms or differential equations. They came years later. But kids need to be taught problem solving. And arithmetic isn’t problem solving. Nor it is reasoning. A major problem I see is that many students don’t get taught the ideas problem solving and logic. If they need to study more complex mathematics - those going on to STEM subjects, they need to get to the point where they are comfortable with the idea of manipulating mathematics with a toolbox of tricks and to understand how to map mathematical abstractions into the real world and vice versa. An 8 year old is not going to cope with differential equations. But they can cope with the idea of abstract categorisations and manipulating relationships between them. This can lead into understanding logical fallacies in argument - fallacy of the excluded middle for instance. These are life skills for anyone. Not just those taking STEM areas as a career. Back in ancient times students were taught rhetoric as an identifiable subject. It is a shame this is no longer true. Where New Math came a bit unstuck was pushing other pure mathematical ideas too early. There is the joke about the kid who came home from school, and his father asked him what 5 times 6 was. “Don’t know” says the kid. “But I do know that it is 6 times 5”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/32 "2019-10-19T12:42:22Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > But, I hope, no one is suggesting dropping the basics of mathematics in favor of more set theory. The idea is to learn about Venn diagrams _in addition to_ the multiplication table, square roots, logarithms, and differential equations. Logarithms and differential equations aren’t basics. Very few people need to know anything at all about them. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/33 "2019-10-19T13:17:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Logarithms and differential equations aren’t basics. Very few people need to know anything at all about them. That was not a comprehensive list of basics from primary school through college, nor were they all subjects from elementary school. The OP mentioned calculus, differential equations, and something else he couldn’t remember - I assume linear algebra - as college math, and you had better believe that all of those, plus logarithms, are 100% basic in that particular context (university-level engineering, science, etc.) What is the primary core of the core that “everybody” needs to know is what the New Math argument is about; of course people objected if it was suddenly the entire curriculum and arithmetic, geometry, etc. were out. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/34 "2019-10-19T14:03:59Z")
Most of the people nowadays who complain about “New Math” and why can’t we just teach it the way they were taught, are the ones who were raised on New Math. Kids _are_, in fact, being taught the way they were taught. They just don’t remember any of it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/35 "2019-10-19T14:17:50Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > That was not a comprehensive list of basics from primary school through college, nor were they all subjects from elementary school. The OP mentioned calculus, differential equations, and something else he couldn’t remember - I assume linear algebra - as college math, and you had better believe that all of those, plus logarithms, are 100% basic in that particular context (university-level engineering, science, etc.) We were discussing elementary school, you weren’t clear about what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/36 "2019-10-21T17:17:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Most of the people nowadays who complain about “New Math” and why can’t we just teach it the way they were taught, are the ones who were raised on New Math. Kids _are_, in fact, being taught the way they were taught. They just don’t remember any of it. No they aren’t. They’re now doing “Core Math”, which is substantially different. I was born in the early 80s, so I definitely learned New Math. I listen to [Tom Lehrer’s song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA) and think “well, obviously that’s how you do long subtraction. How… else would you do it?” But my friend’s daughters recently demonstrated how they learned to do long subtraction and multiplication and it’s definitely different. Here’s a [video on subtraction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4cwKsM_Mv8) in several ways. Multiplication is sort of similar but they basically split each number up and do a cross product then add back together. Which is spatially _different_ than the way I learned to do long multiplication, which was left-shifting each digit, then adding up. Note that the differences between Old Math and New Math in subtraction are pretty minor. Even the notation is almost the same, and the concept of “borrow and pay back” vs “rearrange” are minor. Someone who learned either would likely have little problem switching to the other. The difference between those and Core Math are comparatively vast. Someone who is comfortable with math isn’t going to have a problem following Core Math having learned a different method, but a average parent or teacher who is not as confident in their math skills could easily have trouble helping kids learn a different method than they learned. ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/37 "2019-10-21T17:25:43Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Where New Math came a bit unstuck was pushing other pure mathematical ideas too early. There is the joke about the kid who came home from school, and his father asked him what 5 times 6 was. “Don’t know” says the kid. “But I do know that it is 6 times 5”. Or the kid says “42”, and dad says “huh?” and the kid says, “Sorry, that was base 7.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/38 "2019-10-21T20:40:50Z")
“Common Core math” isn’t anything new. It’s just a new label for the way most of the country has been doing it for most people’s entire lifespans. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/39 "2019-10-21T21:43:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Logarithms and differential equations aren’t basics. Very few people need to know anything at all about them. We definitely needed to understand logarithms back when we used slide rules. Diff eqs not so much. I only passed that class because Nixon invaded Cambodia. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955/40 "2019-10-21T21:46:58Z")
Kids need to be taught Venn diagrams so they can get the jokes that are posted on Facebook and other places. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-point-of-teaching-kids-set-theory/841955.md?page=3)