# What is the POTUS' level of clearance in top secret matters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 13, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188 "2008-05-13T18:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/81 "2008-05-16T11:33:05Z")
pbase writes: \> Prior to the 90’s, most americans had probably never heard of the NSA. Books with large sections about NSA written before 1990: _The Puzzle Palace_ by James Bamford, 1982 _The Codebreakers_ by David Kahn, 1967 _The Pueblo Surrender_, by Robert A. Liston, 1988 _The Origin and Development of the National Security Agency_ by George A. Brownell, 1981 (Possibly) the first significant mention of NSA in a nonfiction book: _The Invisible Government_ By David Wise, Thomas B. Ross (Possibly) the first mention of NSA in fiction: “Entropy” by Thomas Pynchon, 1960 (Possibly) the first mention of NSA on a non-news TV show: _Star Trek_, 1968 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/82 "2008-05-16T11:36:49Z")
pbase writes: \> You don’t have all the facts, you can probably never get them, so you can never \> be certain. Extraterrestrials have controlled the U.S. government since they landed in Roswell, New Mexico since 1947. Don’t try to refute me. You don’t have all the facts, you can probably never get them, so you can never be certain. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/83 "2008-05-16T13:52:46Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] Extraterrestrials have controlled the U.S. government since they landed in Roswell, New Mexico since 1947. Don’t try to refute me. You don’t have all the facts, you can probably never get them, so you can never be certain. [/QUOTE] Are _you_ certain that they didn’t? That said, since this is GQ I think we have to conclude that, _legally_, the President has access to any and all classified information. Since nobody has cited any relevant law to the contrary, we may further conclude that anyone who _did_ hide something from the President would be doing so illegally, if he chose to issue an EO mandating its release. We may finally conclude that it is possible and perhaps even likely that individuals or even whole agencies have concealed or attempted to conceal information from the President, but that the same would be isolated incidents. Anybody disagree with any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/84 "2008-05-16T14:07:11Z")
So it is possible and even likely that extraterrestrials have controlled the U.S. government since they landed in Roswell, New Mexico since 1947. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/85 "2008-05-16T15:42:27Z")
Nobody ever states that conspiracies don’t exist, BTW. They say that conspiracy theories are always wrong. It’s trivial to make a distinction between the two, but the conspiracy theorists don’t ever want to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/86 "2008-05-16T15:42:29Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] So it is possible and even likely that extraterrestrials have controlled the U.S. government since they landed in Roswell, New Mexico since 1947. [/QUOTE] Huh? My brain-legs aren’t capable of making that leap of logic. Can you fill in the gap? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/87 "2008-05-16T15:42:37Z")
> [@](#): > > This is precisely what I was thinking of, when I originally posted this topic. Who can say who knows what? The director can tell the president all he knows, but is that all there is to know? > > Many of you have been able to cite law in this matter, that government employees are required to disclose certain information to the president upon his request. But the constitution, wonderful document that it is, is only 200+ years old and cannot override human nature. I’ll point to this comment made in an earlier thread on this same topic. The poster here makes mention of how “career CIA” view the sitting president… This is my point. You have to assume that somebody know the secrets. If nobody knows, then it’s not a secret, it’s just unknown. So let’s assume for the sake of argument, that there’s a secret military base out in Arizona where we have our StarGate and are visiting other planets. They have a hundred people onsite who know about it and there must be some people offsite who they report to and receive their logistic support from. Let’s say that the Assistant Deputy Director for Special Operations is the top guy who actually knows the StarGate exists. What does he tell his boss? _“Sorry, sir, I’m running a secret operation and I can’t tell you what we’re doing. Just hand me a check every year for ten million dollars so we can pay for it.”_ or _“Why, the job of my department is to monitor the fish population in the Great Lakes. That’s all we do and that’s all we’ve ever done…What? No, I’m sorry, sir, you can’t come and do an inspection tour of our facilities…No, sir, I can’t produce any reports to show how our budget gets spent…Am I trying to hide something? No, sir, of course not”_ ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/88 "2008-05-16T16:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] I certainly don’t agree. I say it can’t be done. I keep asking you to give me any basis at all for saying this, but I haven’t heard anything yet. [/QUOTE] How about [QUOTE=U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8] The Congress shall have power … To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof. [/QUOTE] Since I see nothing in the rest of the Constitution that places limits on laws dealing with information, this seems pretty clear that Congress could indeed pass laws requiring some members of the executive branch to keep certain information from various parties including the President. As has been noted, Congress has already done just that in at least two cases (IRS info and medical info). I don’t see what your constitutionally-relevant distinction is between ‘secret’ information which you’re saying Congress can’t keep from the President, and ‘confidential personal’ information which Congress already has. Do you have any source for your assertion that Article I Section 8 doesn’t allow Congress to regulate ‘secret’ information? Or that the President could (legally) ignore duly-passed federal law? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/89 "2008-05-16T17:01:09Z")
Isn’t the Independent Counsel Act a relevant precedent here? Although Congress has allowed the Act to lapse, the Supreme Court ruled that it was constitutional for Congress to create an executive office to be filled by the judiciary, reporting to Congress, whose holder was not removable at the pleasure of the President. Presumably the President had no authority to review the investigative files of the Independent Counsel. With that as background, why could not Congress create an intelligence office, to be filled by someone other than the President and not removable at the pleasure of the President, whose files are similarly inaccessible? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/90 "2008-05-16T18:14:18Z")
[QUOTE=Quercus] Since I see nothing in the rest of the Constitution that places limits on laws dealing with information, this seems pretty clear that Congress could indeed pass laws requiring some members of the executive branch to keep certain information from various parties including the President. As has been noted, Congress has already done just that in at least two cases (IRS info and medical info). [/QUOTE] The President can obtain protected health information via executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/91 "2008-05-16T18:16:43Z")
[QUOTE=Tom Tildrum] With that as background, why could not Congress create an intelligence office, to be filled by someone other than the President and not removable at the pleasure of the President, whose files are similarly inaccessible? [/QUOTE] It can. However, the Office of Independent Counsel was part of the legislature, not the executive. We’re talking about whether offices under the Executive can keep information from the Prez. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/92 "2008-05-16T20:03:44Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] The President can obtain protected health information via executive order. [/QUOTE] Is that specified in the statute regulating health information or do you get this from somewhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/93 "2008-05-16T20:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] The President can obtain protected health information via executive order. [/QUOTE] Show what part of the Privacy Act allows this alleged use of medical records. [Link.](http://www.justice.gov/oip/privstat.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/94 "2008-05-16T21:30:56Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] However, the Office of Independent Counsel was part of the legislature, not the executive. [/QUOTE] Not so. The IC was appointed by the Judiciary and reported to Congress, but the Supreme Court expressly found that the IC was an inferior officer of the Executive Branch. Among other factors, the IC was removable by the Attorney General, albeit only “for cause.” So with that precedent, I don’t see why a suspicious Congress could not pass a law authorizing a judge to appoint an independent intelligence officer, authorized to gather intelligence and make reports to Congress, and removable by the DNI only for cause. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/95 "2008-05-16T22:30:19Z")
[QUOTE=Quercus] Is that specified in the statute regulating health information or do you get this from somewhere else? [/QUOTE] It’s under HIPPA, not the Privacy Act, but I can’t find it now. :smack: I’ll withdraw that assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/96 "2008-05-16T23:41:30Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Show what part of the Privacy Act allows this alleged use of medical records. [Link.](http://www.justice.gov/oip/privstat.htm) [/QUOTE] My job requires me to be certified on HIPAA. I don’t think there is any provision for any government official to have access to personal medical data. Psychiatric records are especially restricted. There is no legal way under the laws I have read for any government agency to see those. I know you didn’t contradict any of this. I am adding on. ---
**Author:** ![pbase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/50afbb/32.png) [@pbase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/97 "2008-05-17T00:47:48Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] pbase writes: \> Prior to the 90’s, most americans had probably never heard of the NSA. Books with large sections about NSA written before 1990: _The Puzzle Palace_ by James Bamford, 1982 _The Codebreakers_ by David Kahn, 1967 _The Pueblo Surrender_, by Robert A. Liston, 1988 _The Origin and Development of the National Security Agency_ by George A. Brownell, 1981 (Possibly) the first significant mention of NSA in a nonfiction book: _The Invisible Government_ By David Wise, Thomas B. Ross (Possibly) the first mention of NSA in fiction: “Entropy” by Thomas Pynchon, 1960 (Possibly) the first mention of NSA on a non-news TV show: _Star Trek_, 1968 [/QUOTE] Nonetheless, textbooks from my gradeschool american history classes (a few of which I still have) from the 80’s make no mention of the NSA. If you were to ask most Americans prior to 9/11, I’ll bet most would have said the CIA and FBI were the only intelligence agencies in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/98 "2008-05-17T01:36:30Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] So let’s assume for the sake of argument, that there’s a secret military base out in Arizona where we have our StarGate and are visiting other planets. They have a hundred people onsite who know about it and there must be some people offsite who they report to and receive their logistic support from. [/QUOTE] The memory that really came to mind because of this thread was that scene from Independence Day (the movie where Jeff Goldblum stops an alien invasion with a Macintosh computer virus… yeah…) when the President replies to some nut, “there’s no such thing as aliens in Roswell” and then his defense chief turns to him and says, “well not exactly, Mr. President…” Although I’m one of those who’s saying “the President doesn’t get to know shit unless he tries hard to look,” I find it hard to envision something like an alien base being kept secret. For one thing, it’s just too freaking cool to not spread as a rumor (you have to realize the vast majority of the time information dies. someone might casually leak something, but it just doesn’t get passed on.) I’m wondering if covering up the money trail might not be so hard, however, if it’s just $10mil. That’s peanuts. The stuff that’s _easy_ to keep under wraps is stuff that no one wants to believe. Stuff that makes the US look bad and undercuts peoples’ faith in the goodness of their government. For example, if 9/11 _did_ involve explosives, I think that would be fairly easy to keep secret because absolutely no one wants to even consider it as a possibility. Even something as plainly obvious as the President steering the intelligence services to produce bogus intelligence is in practice ignored by serious people (ie, anyone who’s not an anti-war protester). Many turn to be apologists for the government, saying it was all a sort of good-willed mass hallucination. Some people turn to circular logic, like Exapno, saying to themselves, “if anything wrong ever happened, everyone would be talking about it. but I don’t see people talking about it, ergo nothing wrong must have happened.” If Iran-contra was never discovered, the President would have a very hard time finding out about it now. And even that it’s been discovered, you should go find me one high school history textbook that talks about it in any detail. People just don’t like to talk about what makes them uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/99 "2008-05-17T01:56:08Z")
Err, to tie it with my previous posts and the OP: In the hypotheticals “Iran contra was never discoverd” and “bombs were set off in WTC,” classified documents would still exist to prove the truth (eg in a court) and the POTUS could see them if he ever knew which ones they were. However, it’d be _finding_ those documents which would be the big challenge (or even knowing to look for them). And that is the enormous qualifier on saying “The President can see any classified document he wants.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188/100 "2008-05-17T02:30:03Z")
[QUOTE=pbase] Nonetheless, textbooks from my gradeschool american history classes (a few of which I still have) from the 80’s make no mention of the NSA. If you were to ask most Americans prior to 9/11, I’ll bet most would have said the CIA and FBI were the only intelligence agencies in the US. [/QUOTE] Again, so what? Nobody except you is saying that the average American knows anything deep about the government. And what the average American knows has nothing whatsoever to do with any topic covered in this thread in any way. The average American not knowing about the NSA doesn’t prevent all the politicians, all the journalists, all the lobbyists, all the professors, all the watchdog groups, all the activists, and all the literate public from knowing. This isn’t even a strawman argument. I can’t figure out what point you think you’re making. Are you seriously arguing that because your _high school textbook_ didn’t mention the NSA that they could therefore be hiding things from the President? I’m baffled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-potus-level-of-clearance-in-top-secret-matters/449188.md?page=6)