# What is the purpose of the death penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036 "2009-05-29T16:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/61 "2009-05-30T20:50:45Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Also, please provide an argument for why “innocents get executed too” is justification for scrapping the program instead of just overhauling the process. No nation has ever come up with a process that guarantees that innocent people won’t be executed. With all of the legal protections we provide to defendants, and with an appeals process that sometimes seems endless, we’re \*still \*discovering people on death row who have been proven innocent by new evidence, or by applying new ways of examining old evidence. I’m forced to conclude that a perfect process is simply impossible. Because the consequences of making a mistake are so dire, and so utterly irreversible, the death penalty can’t be supported. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/62 "2009-05-30T21:13:23Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Also, please provide an argument for why “innocents get executed too” is justification for scrapping the program instead of just overhauling the process. Because people with a need for righteous revenge and bloodlust already think the death penalty process takes too long, and costs too much. I have no confidence that the system can be retooled to eliminate the chance that a innocent person can be executed, when the forces in favor of sending more convicts to death row, and killing them faster are so strident. Neither do I like sending a man to prison for 22 years, only to discover that he was innocent all along; but at least that grievous error can be undone in some fashion by letting him out of prison. When you come up with a way to unkill the wrongfully executed, I will listen to your argument. The execution of a single innocent person is too many. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/63 "2009-05-30T23:23:56Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The reason I like the death penalty is righteous revenge. It lets me get out my bloodlust. It lets me know that the universe is balanced in that the sense that an eye for an eye is carried out. It makes me feel good knowing that Saddam Hussein is dead. I like knowing that Tim McVeigh is gone. They’ll never laugh or smile about anything ever again. > > Please provide an argument that this is an invalid reason to off people via the state. Why should I need to provide an argument for that? You should provide an argument FOR this being a valid reason. Why just kill them? Why don’t we torture criminals? What should bloodlust be more justified than, say, me wanting to kill people wearing yellow socks on weekends? ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/64 "2009-05-31T00:33:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This is precisely why I oppose the death penalty. There is nothing more heinous than the state executing an innocent man in my name. The “in my name” is the exact reason it will never be a justifiable option to me. If you’re killing someone for any reason other than because they are an immediate threat, then I consider it a morally repugnant act. I don’t want the state carrying out an act such as this in my name. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/65 "2009-05-31T02:46:13Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > 1. > > By the way, if asked I will need to search for cite, but it seems that nobody ever escaped from the strongest security prisons. 2 convicted murderers, both serving life without parole just walked out of a prison in Arkansas and remain at large. This debate thread ought to get real interesting if they kill someone before they are apprehended again. [http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975](http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/66 "2009-05-31T03:06:27Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > 2 convicted murderers, both serving life without parole just walked out of a prison in Arkansas and remain at large. This debate thread ought to get real interesting if they kill someone before they are apprehended again. > > [Pardon"][http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975](http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975) ]([http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975](http://www.kait8.com/global/story.asp?s=10448975)[/quote) Pardon me, but this is less an argument in favor of the death penalty, as it is an argument for better prison security. If murderers can walk out, so can rapists and muggers; should they be executed to prevent recidivism? How about drug dealers? Tax evaders? ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/67 "2009-05-31T14:49:09Z")
While I share the sentiment that some people deserve to die for their crimes, this isn’t a valid reason to give the state the power to kill without need. Once we give the state that power, it will be used – and it might be used against _us_ not just _them_. And given the [facts](http://www.aclu.org/capital/innocence/35131res20080414.html), no one and nothing can guarantee its rightful usage. When it comes to my freedoms and rights, I want the state to have as little power over me as possible, especially when the consequences of its use are irreversible and abuse not out of the question. I’m glad that the German constitution leaves no wiggle room for the introduction of the death penalty: it is banned and not even the parliament in its entirety could change that. In fact, [Europe](http://www.coe.int/t/dc/files/themes/peine_de_mort/default_en.asp)has almost totally abolished capital punishment and yet, somehow, we manage to not be overrun by hardened criminals who feel much more inclined to commit the most heinous crimes on our territories, in contrast to, say, the USA or China. Seriously, I’d really like to see evidence of a direct link between the death penalty and a reduction of murder or other crimes that lead to its implementation. If someone can show such a connection I’ll admit that it might at least act as a deterrent. Otherwise, I see no reason to take that point seriously. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/68 "2009-05-31T18:50:25Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That is technically true, in the sense that you can put them in a hole and never let them out. Exactly. And it doesn’t even take that much. Solitary confinement, with shackles, and proper safeguards during any activity requiring the removal of said shackels, should be sufficient. I’m glad you agree that killing them is not necessary > [@](#): > > Lovely, an anti-DP’er with a self-righteous streak a mile wide. I’m sure we’ll be getting many thoughtful, well-considered posts from you which are not at all ad hominems, yes sirree bob. In what way was anything I said “argumentum ad hominem”? I simply focused the argument where it really is: **Annie-Xmas** wants to kill certain murderers not for the avoidance of recidivism (which we have just agreed doesn’t take killing them to ensure), but rather to relieve her desire for some sort of “justice” to occur. As she has stated in later posts, she doesn’t just want them executed, she wants them to suffer in measure according to how they made others suffer as they killed. That’s nothing more than a desire for revenge. A visceral response to the crime that was committed. It’s a natural response, and frankly, as I pointed out in my first post here, it’s part of what the criminal justice system considers when setting a punishment for a given crime. The problem that I, and many others world wide have with this particular punishment is that it ends a life. Therefore, it is morally no different than the behavior it seeks to punish. And unlike imprisoning someone, which isn’t exactly friendly behavior either, on the part of the state, killing someone ends their life. That’s something that I find quite troubling, and I am not alone in this. Indeed, it is saddening to me that, just as our country dragged its feet on the issue of slavery, we seem to be dragging our feet on the issue of capital punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/69 "2009-06-01T12:10:47Z")
My reason for supporting the death penalty is not revenge. It is fear. Fear that some psycho killer will escape prison and kill again. When you can absolutely, positively guarantee that no serial killer or mass murderer will ever escape from priosn or kill again by keeping them totally isolated from human contact in a 100% secure prison, I will gladly stop being afraid and drop my opposition to life without parole. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/70 "2009-06-01T12:14:43Z")
This statement: > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > My reason for supporting the death penalty is not revenge. It is fear. Fear that some psycho killer will escape prison and kill again. is incompatible with this statement: > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If I had my way, not only would people who commit unjustifiable murders be handed the death penalty, but they would be killed in exactly the same way they did the deed. > > I would have chained McVeigh onto a chair and kept him there for a while waiting before setting a bomb off. Bundy would have been raped, stangled and suffocated in a mud pile like his last 12 year old victim. > > If the 9/11 hijackers had parachuted from the planes and been rescued, I supposed you would have given them life in prison, with free food, clothing, TV, gym, Internet and visitation with loved ones. Looks like revenge to me. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/71 "2009-06-01T12:15:21Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When you can absolutely, positively guarantee that no serial killer or mass murderer will ever escape from priosn or kill again by keeping them totally isolated from human contact in a 100% secure prison, I will gladly stop being afraid and drop my opposition to life without parole. When you can absolutely, positively guarantee that no innocent person will be executed, I will reconsider my opposition to the death penalty. For me, that’s dispositive - no other aspect of the argument is even worth considering. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/72 "2009-06-01T12:28:01Z")
When the last time a person falsey accused of being a serial killer or mass murderer was executed? ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/73 "2009-06-01T12:30:36Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When the last time a person falsey accused of being a serial killer or mass murderer was executed? We’ll probably never know. Which is precisely the problem. Once the person is dead, all inquiry pretty much stops. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/74 "2009-06-01T12:52:50Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When the last time a person falsey accused of being a serial killer or mass murderer was executed? We will not know about **the last** , but this link was given above: > [@wintertime](#): > > (…) And given the [facts](http://www.aclu.org/capital/innocence/35131res20080414.html), no one and nothing can guarantee its rightful usage. (…) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/75 "2009-06-01T13:08:23Z")
> [@Rusalka](#): > > If you believe people like that cannot be “reformed” and that they are “just fucking crazy”, then you must also believe that they didn’t choose to be that way. If they are just broken, and therefore deserve to die, how is the death penalty, in your view, different from the idea of eugenics: discarding individuals who are not “whole”, like people who are born with genetic defects that cause them to be a greater burden on society than healthy people? There’s a distinct difference between someone that is “broken” and murders innocent people and someone that may be mentally challenged, have Down’s Syndrome, etc, etc that _doesn’t_ murder innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/76 "2009-06-01T13:10:00Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > So would decriminalizing drug possession, except it would free up alot of prison space so the guards wouldn’t be overtaxed, the prisons wouldn’t be overflowing, and we could properly incarcerate the real nutsos. Well, I’m with you there, but Nancy Reagan says no. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/77 "2009-06-01T13:15:57Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > captain insanos Band/Breakfast Cereal Name! ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/78 "2009-06-01T15:35:13Z")
> [@](#): > > A society in which, if (you think) someone killed your brother or raped your daughter or stole your cattle, you hunt them down and kill them, is replaced by a society in which you take your case before the authorities, they investigate, and the offender is publicly executed. This is in many ways an improvement, and may have been the only practical way of dealing with people who were a mortal danger to their neigbors when imprisonment was impracticable. – **Thudlow Boink** This might have been true for tribal societies, still close to the hunter-gatherer-life style, but once we started to build cities, imprisonment stopped to be “impracticable”. You could still argue that such a society failed to have the resources to incarcerate larger groups of people but that rather points to a society in general disarray. When the prisons of a society are starting to overflow, something is terribly wrong with the state of the society. > [@](#): > > The reason I like the death penalty is righteous revenge. – **Chessic Sense** I do understand this sentiment, quite often I feel the same, especially when I hear about a crime that is even more sickening than the ones we are used to; this point of view does, however, focus solely on the relationship between victim and offender and ignores any deeper context. It seems to me that here is one of the areas, where American and European attitudes are more at odds than usual: while we agree (in the majority) that an individual is also a product of his societal surroundings, Americans tend to focus on the idea that an individual is always able to decide what is right or wrong; his actions are his responsibility and his alone. Both points of views are wrong when you totally ignore the other; in a murder case, the background might or might not provide us with an insight concerning the why of the crime, but we should, at least, ask the question. Because then we accumulate the data necessary to see if we are dealing with certain patterns beyond the psychological. Once you accept the idea, that something might be wrong in a society when certain crimes happen far more often than in other societies or are on a steep rise in contrast to earlier times, you are one step closer to solve the underlying problem – if there is one, of course. We can simply accept that Colombia has more murders than the USA and the USA more than the European countries .. or we try to find out the reasons within each society and work to minimize them as much as possible. > [@](#): > > The purpose of the death penalty is to provide a sense of justice for the victim’s family. – **HellsAngel21** Could you provide a study that shows that “a sense of justice” is only or in the vast majority experienced when the offender is killed? There are relatives of murder victims who seem to think differently, like the somewhat known [Anne Coleman](http://www.ccadp.org/Perspective.htm). I can’t say how typical her perspective is but without any further knowledge, I’m not willing to call it outlandish. > [@](#): > > When you can absolutely, positively guarantee that no serial killer or mass murderer will ever escape from priosn or kill again by keeping them totally isolated from human contact in a 100% secure prison, I will gladly stop being afraid and drop my opposition to life without parole. – **Annie-Xmas** This is a strange risk assessment. You do realize that you are surrounded by dangers 24/7? There is no 100% positive guarantee, that you won’t die in your car while driving to work, no guarantee that you get out of a hospital alive, no guarantee that your meal isn’t crawling with highly resistant salmonella, no guarantee that you don’t break your neck in your house, etc. If serial killers escaped from prisons on a daily basis, I could see your point; but in reality, the likelihood for you to die by their hands is far smaller than any other danger I’ve listed. I do understand that you didn’t say your fear was rational .. but an irrational - and absurdly overblown - fear isn’t exactly a good reason to kill a person. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/79 "2009-06-01T16:36:17Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > This might have been true for tribal societies, still close to the hunter-gatherer-life style, but once we started to build cities, imprisonment stopped to be “impracticable”. You could still argue that such a society failed to have the resources to incarcerate larger groups of people but that rather points to a society in general disarray. When the prisons of a society are starting to overflow, something is terribly wrong with the state of the society. Good post overall, but i’d just add to your analysis a bit: it’s not just that imprisonment has to become practicable, it’s the fact that the rule of law has to be respected and permeate all levels of society. In short, people have to believe that the justice system has a monopoly on punishment (of the incarceration variety), that it is used objectively and justly, and that it actually serves the needs it seeks to address. This level of confidence in a justice system is a relatively recent one - within the past 100 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036/80 "2009-06-01T18:05:26Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Better question would be “has anyone escaped from death row?” (like real escape, not having their execution commuted) Yes, [that too.](http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/drowfacts.htm) Are we going to move the goal posts again? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-purpose-of-the-death-penalty/498036.md?page=5)