# What is the rationale for opposition to same-sex marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382 "2009-04-08T11:47:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/61 "2009-04-08T17:16:34Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Gay relationships cannot have children, naturally. Neither can non-fertile heterosexual relationships. So what? What does the ability to naturally reproduce have to do with the entitlement to a civil right? > [@](#): > > Every gay couple has had to work around the biology in order to make this an issue. So do many, many many heterosexuals. So what? > [@](#): > > In other words, they’ve created the problem and now demand society fix it. What “problem?” > [@](#): > > Then, the word, ‘family’. Family isn’t some word with one definition. Family can mean nuclear family (father, mother, children) but can also include aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, godparents. Or adopted children or same-sex partners. > [@](#): > > You can call your relationship a family, it does not obligate society to award you something as a result. That’s exactly what YOU are trying to do. You want to say that YOUR definition of “family” is the right one, and that you are therefore entitled to special rights that should NOT be granted to families which don’t fit your own, personal, arbitray, capricious, self-serving definition. > [@](#): > > Marriage is a relationship in which the sexual union, by no means the sole purpose of the relationship but an integral part, nonetheless, can and under natural circumstances will, result in offspring. This is factually incorrect in every detail. Is a sexless marriage still a marriage? If not, then you can’t say sex is “integral.” It’s also not true that any heterosexual sex has a chance to result in offspring. A woman who has had a hysteectomy, for instance, has no more theoretical chance of getting pregnant than I do. Should infertile or post-menopausal people be prevented from getting married? Reproduction has fuck-all to do with the definition of marriage. It’s just an option that married people can exercise like buying a house or playing Scrabble. If you’re going to persist in this line of argument, you have to justify letting non-fertile heterosexual couple get married. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/62 "2009-04-08T17:22:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Citizens want this right and there’s no evidence that anyone, including society itself, would be harmed by it. > Seems to me that would be enough for any person who loves liberty. Now you’re just playing with language. If you want to argue that a chair is a desk, but I insist the desk is a desk and a chair is a chair, you don’t then get to argue that “there’s no evidence that anyone, including society, would be harmed by [calling] it [a desk].” ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/63 "2009-04-08T17:24:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Generally in this country our marriage statutes are based around the support of couples raising a family. Straight couples who remain childless take advantage of those statutes and society has felt that it is acceptable that they do so, but the basic impetus for the support for marriage has been based around the legitimacy and care of children. Not really. One’s rights over and obligations towards one’s biological offspring are completely independent of marital status. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/64 "2009-04-08T17:24:49Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > No. I didn’t say gay marriage will hinder society. Don’t put words in my mouth. I’ve said that marriage is a unique relationship that society can and should value. I’ve also said, essentially, that gay relationships are not the same, by definition. OKay, given that it will not hinder, according to your description of those differences is there any valid reason to deny gays that right any more than the elderly getting married or infertile couples getting married, considering jayjay’s post? It’s not just about benefiting society by having productive offspring. Marriage laws are also about protecting and defining the civil rights of the individuals involved. That’s why there are laws about property rights, child custody and support. Protecting the right of individuals is not only a responsibility of the government it also promotes the best interest if society in general. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/65 "2009-04-08T17:26:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Constitutional rights are based on “emotional appeal”? Really? Nope, I’m saying that’s the appeal that will result in gay marriage being approved. In other words, I’m losing out to that emotional appeal. > [@](#): > > Plenty of married couples cannot have children, and some don’t even have sex. Are you demanding that those marriages cease to be recognized? Why would I? I’ve already answered this. We don’t _mandate_ child-rearing. Society accords benefits to the relationship that will, all things being equal, produce children. Our society is so great, even, that we don’t demand the impossible, that the infertile become fertile and produce endlessly for the state. Why do you even bother with this line? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/66 "2009-04-08T17:26:47Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > How, specifically, does allowing gays to get married ‘devalue’ heterosexual marriage? We’ve had same sex marriage in my state for several years now. It hasn’t affected my own marriage in the slightest. I haven’t heard a single peep from anyone else claiming theirs has, either. How much longer should I wait for all these terrible, sky-falling, civilization-crumbling consequences I keep reading about? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/67 "2009-04-08T17:28:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Actually, the foundation of civilization is agriculture. SHeeit. You’re such a sight. For the…well, you know who you are… Family is the foundational _human_ unit for society. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/68 "2009-04-08T17:28:47Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Now you’re just playing with language. If you want to argue that a chair is a desk, but I insist the desk is a desk and a chair is a chair, you don’t then get to argue that “there’s no evidence that anyone, including society, would be harmed by [calling] it [a desk].” _Is_ there any evidence that switching the names of desks and chairs harms society? If I want to write a story or produce a movie in which the names are switched, is there any reason anyone should try to stop me? Surely I “get to argue” whatever I want, no? So what _is_ the harm to society posed by gay marriage and thus the rationale for opposing it? Quantify, please. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/69 "2009-04-08T17:28:59Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Gay relationships cannot have children, naturally. Every gay couple has had to work around the biology in order to make this an issue. In other words, they’ve created the problem and now demand society fix it. No, they do not want society to fix it. They want society to stop hindering them from fixing it themselves by denying them equal rights. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/70 "2009-04-08T17:29:20Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > What harm? Lack of marriage harms same-sex couples. The documentation of actual harm is long and well recorded. Some of it is financial and some of it is basic human decency. A recent case saw a couple forcibly separated in a Florida hospital while one partner died. The hospital would not recognize same-sex marriage since it was Florida, and ignored the power-of-attorney documentation sent to them. Lack of marriage puts couples in danger of financial woes if one partner dies, especially when the deceased’s family is itself bigoted. The surviving spouse has been left homeless. Marriage would have protected the interests of the couple. Just because someone buries its head in the sand and doesn’t pay attention to or care about, real cases of harm due to the lack of marriage rights, doesn’t mean harm doesn’t and isn’t happening every day. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/71 "2009-04-08T17:29:33Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Nope, I’m saying that’s the appeal that will result in gay marriage being approved. And not reference to the Constitution. Got nothing to do with it. Got it. > [@](#): > > Society accords benefits to the relationship that will, all things being equal, produce children. But all things are never equal. People do get married knowing they can’t, or won’t, have kids, and stay married long after they no longer can anyway. Why do we permit that? > [@](#): > > Our society is so great, even, that we don’t demand the impossible, that the infertile become fertile and produce endlessly for the state. Why do you even bother with this line? Apply that argument to same sex couples, please. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/72 "2009-04-08T17:30:11Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Family is the foundational _human_ unit for society. Which means what, exactly? Agriculture means food in a localized area, which encourages humans to stay in one place. What does “foundational human unit” mean? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/73 "2009-04-08T17:30:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A voluntary unification of property and mutual designation by two people that each grants the other the exclusive right to make certain decisions under certain circumstances. > > Does it have to be more complicated that that? Thank you, this is at least an argument. And, yes, I’d say so. This ‘unification’ is nothing more than a contract. We have those already. I’m saying, \*marriage is different. \* ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/74 "2009-04-08T17:31:11Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Thank you, this is at least an argument. And, yes, I’d say so. This ‘unification’ is nothing more than a contract. We have those already. I’m saying, \*marriage is different. \* Legally, marriage _is_ a contract. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/75 "2009-04-08T17:31:20Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Nope, I’m saying that’s the appeal that will result in gay marriage being approved. In other words, I’m losing out to that emotional appeal. Could you please describe in specific terms what it is you’re losing? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/76 "2009-04-08T17:33:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Other than the children (and frankly, that’s not exactly impossible, with adoption and surrogacy), I see no difference whatsoever between straight marriage and gay marriage. I don’t understand what you’re seeing, personally. The idea that gay marriage never involves children is simply wrong, laughably so, actually. I probably, at this time in my life, know more gay men and lesbians couples who have children than I do who don’t. Never said it was “exactly impossible”. Never thought it, so, once more, please don’t put words in my mouth. I said that marriage provides a benefit to society and for this reason is rewarded in a number of ways by that society. Other relationships are, well, whatever they are, swell if you think so, but not the same. **In those areas where they are the same,** parenting being the obvious, all rights of parenting should be accorded them. That does not mean marriage. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/77 "2009-04-08T17:33:15Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Thank you, this is at least an argument. And, yes, I’d say so. This ‘unification’ is nothing more than a contract. We have those already. I’m saying, \*marriage is different. \* Would you please explain how it is different and why the aforementioned arguments in favor of gay marriage are invalid? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/78 "2009-04-08T17:34:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > How, specifically, does allowing gays to get married ‘devalue’ heterosexual marriage? Didn’t say it, so won’t argue it. I said, for the upteenth time, marriage is the framework for the family, a benefit to society. That’s why it is valued _above_ other relationships. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/79 "2009-04-08T17:35:33Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > B]In those areas where they are the same,\*\* parenting being the obvious, all rights of parenting should be accorded them. That does not mean marriage. You were just telling us that children are the \*purpose \*of marriage. Which is it?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382/80 "2009-04-08T17:36:36Z")
> [@NaSultainne](#): > > Didn’t say it, so won’t argue it. I said, for the upteenth time, marriage is the framework for the family, a benefit to society. That’s why it is valued _above_ other relationships. How about other relationships that also constitute family, and are also a benefit to society? What makes them not marriage? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-rationale-for-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage/492382.md?page=5)