# What is the REAL situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643 "2004-09-29T08:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/1 "2004-09-29T08:00:05Z")
The left is screaming that the situation is on the edge of falling into total chaos while President Bush and the Iraqi head of state is saying things are going fine. What I know for sure: - I see car bombings in the news almost daily. - U.S. troops are being killed. What I don’t know: - If the people of Iraq are truly optimistic about a democratic Iraq. - If the bombings are not entirely uncommon but overall do not disturb the rebuilding of Iraq. - If the troops are working on an Iraq that has a possible democratic and free society or if they are stuck in a mess with no real end in sight. I’m sure there are a few more things that could be added to each list. So, where does Iraq stand at the moment and what is a likely situation it will face in the near future? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/2 "2004-09-29T10:29:13Z")
I think it’s a ridiculous question. I mean, what is the REAL situation in the US? That depends entirely on where you are and what your circumstances are. There were people who thought the 60s and early 70s were chaos in the US, and it _was_ if you happened to be in South Central LA or the Bronx or the Democratic Convention in Chicago or on the campus of Kent State University. It all depends on your point of view. Outside observers tend to find whatever it is they’re looking for. Here’s an excerpt from a report by Chris Wallace in May: > [@](#): > > Daily life has improved dramatically for the average Iraqi since the fall of Saddam, but it has come at a cost. These three soldiers [three pictures on screen] were killed last July while they guarded a hospital in Baquba. Under the old regime, little money was spent on education and there was no schedule for maintaining school facilities. So far, 2,500 schools have been renovated, with another 800 to be finished soon.” Young girl, through translator: “They put in electricity for us and a fan for us so we could get some air, and I say thanks to God.” Another young girl, through translator: “Before, the school was dirty and not clean, and even the bathroom was not good. This year they made a new bathroom for us, and they changed the building and painted it well.” Wallace: “What children are learning in school has also changed. Before the war the government fired teachers for not following the party line. Almost nine million new math and science textbooks have been printed and distributed. Old books were filled with pro-Saddam propaganda. And here are U.S. troops handing out knapsacks full of school supplies in Samarra [inside a schoolroom]. This just days after those four American contractors were killed and their bodies mutilated in Fallujah. “Major progress has also been made in health care. Under Saddam, the Ministry of Health spent $16 million a year. The current budget is almost $1 billion. The health care system is now open to all Iraqis, with 30 percent more people now using the facilities. Doctors, who used to get $20 a month, now earn up to $180. Modern medication such as cancer drugs are now available, something unheard of during the Saddam years. “Last Sunday, these five Navy Seabees [pictures on screen] were killed in the Sunni triangle while on assignment rebuilding schools and medical facilities for the Iraqis. “Third, human rights. Since the end of Saddam, a fully functioning legal and judicial system has been developed. More than 600 judges are working in courtrooms across the country. Iraqis charged with crimes now have rights that would have been laughed at under the old regime: the right to remain silent when they’re arrested; the right to a fair, speedy and open trial; the right to a defense lawyer at all stages of the process. “Iraqis now enjoy freedom of speech. Street protests against the U.S. occupation are now routine in Baghdad, something that in the past would have earned these demonstrators imprisonment or death. There is also something approaching freedom of the press. Under Saddam, all newspapers were controlled by the government. This woman was a reporter for 27 years.” Woman: “Before, we write as they tell us to write. Now we write what we believe.” Wallace: “Now, 120 papers are being published, some of them critical of the U.S. The coalition has shut down only two papers, which it said were inciting violence.” “This is another sign of new freedom [video of people using computers]: Internet cafes. Before, few people had access to computers, fewer still to the government-monitored Internet. Now people can communicate, get information or sound off in Web blogs. “And here’s more technology that was banned under Saddam Hussein: satellite dishes. Now more than one-third of Iraqi households receive news from around the world by way of these dishes. [video of dishes lining roofs] “Finally, the economy and infrastructure. There’s a new currency in Iraq. Gone are those ever-present pictures of Saddam in a country that used to have two weak currencies, there is now one stable form of money. “Iraq’s most important resource, oil, is showing a strong revival. Production now exceeds pre-war levels, averaging half a million barrels a day more than when Saddam was forced from power. [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1132808/posts](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1132808/posts) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/3 "2004-09-29T11:05:32Z")
In balance to **Lib** ’s Free Republic article, it should be noted that for every heartwarming story of infrastructure being _built_, there is an example of that same infrastructure being [destroyed](http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1188732,00.html) by insurgents. It is difficult to see whether any progress is being made _overall_, and there is indeed a danger that Saddam’s brutal but **stable** rule might even come to be seen as the “good old days”. As for democracy, well, the only [majority consensus](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1306442,00.html) appears to be “Get the fuck out of our country”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/4 "2004-09-29T11:08:48Z")
> [@Sentient](#): > > It is difficult to see whether any progress is being made overall, and there is indeed a danger that Saddam’s brutal but stable rule might even come to be seen as the “good old days”. Lotta white folk pine for the good ol’ 1950s. Didn’t have to lock their doors, sat at the front of the bus, went to the good schools, and all that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/5 "2004-09-29T11:13:19Z")
Heh heh. Lot of olive folk do dat too. Could browse Haifa Street market without being blown to bits by one of dem newfangly hellychoppers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/6 "2004-09-29T11:54:47Z")
If you really want to know, I can recommend 2 good web logs to you. Blogs as they are otherwise known. It takes as much interest as it takes to read a newspaper. One is from an academic with connections to the region. His speciality is the modern history of the Middle East. He has a lot of the less accessible facts to hand and updates daily. [Juan Cole: Informed Comment](http://www.juancole.com/) The other is from a young and articulate Iraqi woman. She has an American education so her language is nearly flawless. She is kind of famous. Lately she hasn’t updated so often as electricity has been scarce and air conditioning a priority. It is worth reading into her archives as well. I like her, she’s terrific. [Riverbend](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/) In the alternative you may wish for the short form. What is called the skinny in American zones. Dire. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/7 "2004-09-29T12:01:48Z")
And of course, there is always the wisdom of our BANNED friend [Collounsbury](http://www.livejournal.com/users/collounsbury/). I try and look in once a week. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/8 "2004-09-29T12:06:47Z")
Lo and behold, he references an excellent recent [BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3675538.stm) about British controlled Basra, which has always been held up as an example of things “going OK” (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > - > > It’s true there have been some real, solid achievements over the past year. > There aren’t petrol queues, or petrol riots, in Basra any more. The electricity is on for longer. And oil exports from the south are up to 2.9 million barrels a day. > > But here are some other statistics. Last month, the British Army fired 100,000 rounds of ammunition in southern Iraq. The base in al-Ammara sustained more than 400 direct mortar hits. The British battalion there counted some 853 separate attacks of different kinds: mortars, roadside bombs, rockets and machine-gun fire. > > **No British regiment has had such intense “contact”, as they call it, since Korea.** \* ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/9 "2004-09-29T12:36:17Z")
Find someone that has been there. Plenty of soldiers have returned from spending many months in Iraq. If you really want to know you have to find someone without an agenda. For every Jaun Cole there is an Ollie North saying the exact opposite. For every Riverbend blog there is Hamorabi saying something totally different. This is a big election issue Bush supporters will make it sound better than it is & Kerry supporters will make it sound worse. Try finding some one inside Iraq to email & maybe they can give you the perspective you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/10 "2004-09-29T12:43:12Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > As for democracy, well, the only [majority consensus](http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1306442,00.html) appears to be “Get the fuck out of our country”. Sample polls has got nothing to do with democracy. Apparently these days a surprisingly large number of East-Germans (and West-Germans) think they had it better under the old regime, and tearing down the wall was all a big mistake. No doubt about it, lotsa people are stupid. Lotsa more people spew bullshit at pollers. To balance Sentient’s balance. Nobody knows what goes on inside Iraq but if you want to read some of that not reported in Sentient’s meat (and seldom reported in the media) Chrenkoff has gathered some good news from Iraq in so far eleven instalments. [Chrenkoff](http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004_05_16_chrenkoff_archive.html#108493214609755777) There are also a few bloggers from inside Iraq: Hammorabi [http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/](http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/) Healing Iraq [http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/](http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/) Iraq and Iraqis [http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/](http://www.iraq-iraqis.blogspot.com/) Iraq at a glance [http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com/](http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/11 "2004-09-29T13:05:42Z")
_All_ of the sources in this thread say the same thing: that Iraq is better in some ways and worse in others. That there is investment and improvements in infrastructure **and** car bombs, kidnappings and lethal Allied force. That some cities are calm and quasi-democratic, and others are no-go areas under Sharia law outwith Allied control. The question is surely: is it getting _better_, or _worse_? I _sincerely hope_ it gets better. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/12 "2004-09-29T13:13:10Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > If you really want to know, I can recommend 2 good web logs to you. Blogs as they are otherwise known. > > It takes as much interest as it takes to read a newspaper. One is from an academic with connections to the region. His speciality is the modern history of the Middle East. He has a lot of the less accessible facts to hand and updates daily. > > [Juan Cole: Informed Comment](http://www.juancole.com/) > > The other is from a young and articulate Iraqi woman. She has an American education so her language is nearly flawless. She is kind of famous. Lately she hasn’t updated so often as electricity has been scarce and air conditioning a priority. It is worth reading into her archives as well. I like her, she’s terrific. > > [Riverbend](http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/) > > In the alternative you may wish for the short form. What is called the skinny in American zones. > > Dire. I counter that Riverbend content with this link > **[IRAQ THE MODEL](http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/)** > > New points of view about the future of Iraq and the Middle East. Scroll down for a scaving attack. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/13 "2004-09-29T13:21:09Z")
Bleah, he’s boring. Stodgy prose. A few quibbles about electricity bills and he’s a hero? Riverbend, now there’s someone who writes with style. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/14 "2004-09-29T13:29:28Z")
Well if you stick strictly to facts: - Bombs are being launched in urban areas by US planes ! - US soldiers are dying at 1-2 a day - Insurgent attacks are increasingly more numerous and bold - US elections are coming soon (political motivation too see things go wrong) - Neighboring countries have little to gain from a US controlled Iraq (aka “Free” Iraq) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/15 "2004-09-29T13:30:22Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Bleah, he’s boring. Stodgy prose. > > A few quibbles about electricity bills and he’s a hero? > > Riverbend, now there’s someone who writes with style. Sounds like you didn’t like the picture of reality the woman put out being skewed. My work here is done 😃 Strange how you didn’t pick up on this. > [@](#): > > We may sound sometimes like the American government but that’s simply because we do share a common goal, and believe it or not, I do have my own opinions and I had them long before the war. You see I don’t get it; if a western guy agrees with the American administration then he’s just taking a stand while if an Iraqi or anyone from the ME does that then he’s either a CIA agent or a fool! Does it sound like they are looking at us as minors or what?! I guess if instead I shifted to parroting Al Jazeerah or people like Michael Moore or Juan Cole, I’d be having a an independent voice? ---
**Author:** ![esquimalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@esquimalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esquimalt)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/16 "2004-09-29T13:36:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Lo and behold, he references an excellent recent [BBC article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3675538.stm) about British controlled Basra, which has always been held up as an example of things “going OK” (bolding mine): I have seen the 100000 figure in the media quite a bit & I can see how people that read this may think things are very bad. This was if I am not mistaken during the last Sadr Militia uprising & during a firefight a soldier with a M16 (not sure what British soldiers use) on semiautomatic can shoot 45 rounds per minute & sustained firing of 12 rounds per minute. 250 soldiers can shoot 100000 rounds in 8 minutes on semiautomatic & 30 minutes of sustained firing. Obviously the British soldiers are still coming under fire & things are not that rosy but I wonder if the media throws numbers like this out there to scare people. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/17 "2004-09-29T14:12:40Z")
The New York Times produced a nice map showing action over the past month: [30 Days, 2368 attacks](http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/09/28/international/29ATTACK-GRAPH.html) There were over 990 attacks in Baghdad alone. Countrywide, attacks included 272 RPG incidents, 40 vehicle bombs, and 799 home made bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/18 "2004-09-29T14:30:07Z")
New York City had 440 felonious assaults last week, and 9 murders, 52 rapes, and 485 robberies. In the past 28 days, there’ve been 48 murders, 153 rapes, 1,907 robberies, 1,600 felonious assaults, and 3,830 grand larcenies. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/19 "2004-09-29T14:39:42Z")
> [@](#): > > In the past 28 days, there’ve been 48 murders, 153 rapes, 1,907 robberies, 1,600 felonious assaults, and 3,830 grand larcenies. And how many grenade/rocket attacks, mortar launches, tank shell firings, car bombs, Hellfire missile launches were there? I appreciate what picture you’re trying to paint here, **Lib** , but Iraq is quite probably **the** most dangerous place in the world right now, for all the infrastructure and democratic institutions which are slowly being put in place. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/20 "2004-09-29T14:41:24Z")
I am an aid worker who has been in Iraq off and on since the end of the war. It is, in my opinion, trending towards total collapse and civil war. I believe the United States has created the conditions for Iraq to become a failed state. Now, for the first time, Iraqis tell me they were better off under Saddam (and they don’t say this lightly). There was a predicatability and stability under Saddam that is completely gone, whereas they suffered under the tyrrany of a madman, now they suffer under the tyrrany of a thousand madmen. Now, there are parts of the city that had always been quiet that are battle zones. US helicopters fire rockets into neighborhoods to kill one man on the ground firing at them and kill a dozen more people who had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Regions of the country that had been quiet are now ablaze with violence. You’ll see pockets of stability (particularly in the north), but I think Iraq as a nation state is over. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643.md?page=2)