# What is the REAL situation in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2004, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643 "2004-09-29T08:00:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/41 "2004-09-29T19:09:13Z")
**Lib** , are you seriously saying that you know more about the situation in Iraq than the guy who is ACTUALLY IN IRAQ? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/42 "2004-09-29T19:10:06Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > No, Vietnam is what you get when you have certain areas and methods ‘off limits’, and fight something less than a total war. The last war we fought with our gloves truly off was WW2, and the last war we utterly and completely won was WW2. What about our glorious victory over the crack Cuban bulldozer drivers in the stunning military campaign _Urgent Fury_, where we made the world safer from the evil plotters in Grenada? Ah, how quickly we forget! ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/43 "2004-09-29T19:13:06Z")
> [@clayton\_e](#): > > So, where does Iraq stand at the moment and what is a likely situation it will face in the near future? [This thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=268014) was about one part of the situation. The link in my OP no longer works because the article was sent to the archives, but here’s a mirror for it. [Marked Women A rash of unpunished honor killings highlights the harrowing dangers females face in the new Iraq]([MEDIA - V-Day](http://www.vday.org/contents/vday/press/media/0407231)) > [@](#): > > When U.S. forces overthrew Saddam Hussein 15 months ago, the Bush Administration proclaimed that women’s rights would be a centerpiece of its project to make Iraq a democratic model for the rest of the Arab world. **But for many Iraqi women, the tyranny of Saddam’s regime has been replaced by chronic violence and growing religious conservatism that have stifled their hopes for wider freedoms — and, for many, put their lives in even greater peril.** For women like Shaima, the most terrifying development has been the rash of honor killings committed by Iraqi men against sisters, wives, daughters or mothers whom they suspect of straying from traditional rules of chastity and fidelity. > > Although such killings are hard to quantify and occurred during Saddam’s regime as well, Iraqi professionals believe that women are now being **murdered by their kin at an unprecedented rate**. On the basis of case reports provided by police, court officials and doctors at Baghdad’s forensics institute, **the number of victims of honor killings in Iraq since the U.S. invasion in March 2003 may total in the hundreds**. (By comparison, in neighboring Jordan, where women’s-rights advocates have succeeded in bringing attention to the issue, activists report an average of 20 honor killings a year.) “This isn’t just an issue about women. It’s about the whole society,” says Safia al-Souhail, a female Iraqi politician who was appointed ambassador to Egypt last week. “We have to stop it. It’s going on everywhere, and no one is speaking about it.” > [@](#): > > The instability that has plagued Iraq since the war’s end 15 months ago has curtailed the spread of liberties that U.S. officials once promised would have taken root by now. Violent crime remains rampant. > [@](#): > > Women are at the greatest risk. Many have become **virtual prisoners** inside their houses, seeking a safe haven amid rising rates of rape, kidnapping and carjacking. At the same time, as the power of Iraq’s Muslim clerics has grown, the **everyday freedoms** that Iraqi women enjoyed under Saddam’s secular Baathist regime **have eroded**. Women who once felt free to dress in Western clothing and shop alone **now must wear a hijab** , the traditional Muslim head scarf, when venturing outside. Many government offices require female employees to wear a veil at work. > [@](#): > > Some believe the **breakdown in law and order** has contributed to the spike in honor killings. An unintended consequence of Saddam’s fall is that there are fewer restraints on violent young men bent on taking matters into their own hands. Last September, Ali Jasib Mushiji, 17, shot his mother and half brother because he suspected them of having an affair and killed his 4-year-old sister because he thought she was their child. Sitting in a jail cell in the Baghdad slum of Sadr City, he says he wiped out his family to cleanse its shame. He had thought about killing his mother for some time but says **it wasn’t until the fall of Saddam** that he was able to buy a Kalashnikov and carry it out. “With the security before, it wasn’t possible,” he says. madmonk28, I’d like to hear your take on stories like this. I appreciate your point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/44 "2004-09-29T19:22:55Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > **Lib** , are you seriously saying that you know more about the situation in Iraq than the guy who is ACTUALLY IN IRAQ? No. Are you saying that Martian canals were formed by liquid carbon dioxide? ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/45 "2004-09-29T19:26:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But you’re in a _war_. That’s the whole point I was making. I didn’t say New York and Bagdad are same same except in the sense that much violence goes unreported. So you are saying the situation is _worse_ than reported? > [@](#): > > . . . [A]ll this hypocrisy of bashing Bush while supporting the efforts to establish peace — these are Neanderthal in their conception. So if I’m for a peaceful resolution in Iraq I MUST be for Bush? How about I’m for less death, chaos, and destruction? For less U.S. casualties? If I’m for Kerry must I hope that death and mayhem happens in a country halfway around the world? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/46 "2004-09-29T19:34:35Z")
> [@clayton\_e](#): > > So you are saying the situation is _worse_ than reported? Well, of course it is. Did you think reporters were omnipresent? > [@](#): > > So if I’m for a peaceful resolution in Iraq I MUST be for Bush? How about I’m for less death, chaos, and destruction? For less U.S. casualties? > If I’m for Kerry must I hope that death and mayhem happens in a country halfway around the world? No, in case English isn’t your first language, I didn’t say that you should be for Bush, but that you should not oppose his peace-keeping policies and that, in fact, you should hope for him the best possible success, given your interference ideology. But it appears that you’re glad he failed. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/47 "2004-09-29T19:45:08Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No. Are you saying that Martian canals were formed by liquid carbon dioxide? Typical. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/48 "2004-09-29T19:52:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The point is that all this feigning of surprise, all this downright enjoyment of the mysery for the sake of punishment and/or vindication, and all this hypocrisy of bashing Bush while supporting the efforts to establish peace — these are Neanderthal in their conception. how is it hypocrisy to bash bush when you think he’s doing a horrible job of establishing peace? if you think someone else would do the job better, isn’t it the proper thing to do to try to see that he gets to do the job? ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/49 "2004-09-29T20:05:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, in case English isn’t your first language, I didn’t say that you should be for Bush, but that you should not oppose his peace-keeping policies and that, in fact, you should hope for him the best possible success, given your interference ideology. **But it appears that you’re glad he failed**. [bolding mine] **Do not** put words in my mouth. I am not happy that people are dying in Iraq. I AM NOT happy that from what people have been saying in this thread it appears that the situation isn’t that great. I am for someone that might have a better plan than “stay the course” when people (both U.S. servicepeople and Iraqi innocents) are being killed daily. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/50 "2004-09-29T20:47:03Z")
[Hepatitis in Iraq](http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=6952) > [@](#): > > A virulent form of hepatitis that is especially lethal for pregnant women has broken out in two of Iraq’s most troubled districts, Iraqi Health Ministry officials said in interviews here this week, and they warned that a collapse of water and sewage systems in the continuing violence in the country is probably at the root of the outbreak. The disease, called hepatitis E, is caused by a virus that is often spread by sewage-contaminated drinking water. > … > Those reports come as the Bush administration has proposed shifting $3.46 billion in reconstruction money for Iraq to programs that would train and equip tens of thousands of additional police officers, border guards and national guardsmen in hopes of regaining control of the security situation. The shift, which needs approval by Congress, would gut what had been an ambitious program to rebuild Iraq’s crumbling water and sewage systems, forcing the cancellation or delay of most of the projects. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/51 "2004-09-29T20:57:51Z")
**Brutus** : > [@](#): > > Speaking of rockets, what else would you suggest to deal with Al Sadr’s goons? I am of the opinion that more rockets are needed (see WW2, in particular the part where we bombed/shot the holy hell out Japan and Germany for several years, and the subsequent lack of noteworthy resistance), but if there is another reasonable option, what would it be? The bombing of populations centers in Germany and Japan did _not_ lead to a collapse of resistance. The Germans fought tooth and nail to the very streets of Berlin and the Soviets took huge casualties (and before that there was the Battle of the Bulge). And there’s no question that the Japanese would have outdone the Germans in that department had it not been for the atomic bombings (and I doubt you’re advocating that route). It’s widely agreed upon by military historians that the strategic bombing campaigns were largely ineffective given the death and destruction they caused (over Germany it was the sustained attacks on oil production and the transportation network that finally produced results). What _would have_ been a more reasonable option would have been to concentrate on _Afghanistan_ as a showcase for US-led democracy and nation building. We used the stick, it was time to break out the carrot; instead we went with the “stick and another stick” approach. Then we dropped one of the sticks and the other stick isn’t big enough. Osama bin Laden wanted us to take out Saddam Hussein to open the door for an Islamic state in Iraq. In spite of everything else, Saddam was keeping a lid on Islamic terrorism (which was supposedly the #1 problem). Taking him out was like kicking the ball into our own goal. After 9/11 there was considerable sympathy for the US in the Muslim world, but considerable anger and suspicion over the invasion of Afghanistan. We needed to assuage that, but instead we made it much, much worse. We needed more support from allies and the rest of the World, instead we alienated them. How can we fight a global war on terrorism without the Globe? What to do now? Get rid of the guy responsible, for starters. We can at least partially exorcise the demon. If we show the rest of the World our good side (it’s around here somewhere) we can coax them back to supporting us. Kerry favors greater international cooperation and has a chance or gaining more support for Iraq. Our only hope lies in convincing them that’s it was just Bush, not the US as a whole. Listening Bush supporters tick off excuses for having gone into Iraq while ignoring the real, Afghanistan-centered problem made me realize something: These people aren’t strategists, they’re salesmen. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/52 "2004-09-29T21:59:59Z")
Elementary, my dear Watson. 1. George W. Bush says things in Iraq are improving. 2. George W. Bush is a known habitual liar. 3. Ergo, things in Iraq are worsening. QED. > [@squeels](#): > > Listening Bush supporters tick off excuses for having gone into Iraq while ignoring the real, Afghanistan-centered problem made me realize something: These people aren’t strategists, they’re salesmen. “Salesmen” is a euphemism for “liar,” y’know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/53 "2004-09-30T09:03:58Z")
**Lib** , my friend, I would ask you to read this thread through again. > [@](#): > > And if they hold to an interventionist political philosophy… then they should be at the front lines of people who are cheering on Bush to enforce the peace. You advocate an interventionist plan. Bush has an interventionist plan. Therefore, you advocate Bush’s interventionist plan. Spot the fallacy. > [@](#): > > But what the way alll this hysteria about Iraq comes across to me is that people are actually glad that there’s trouble in River City. It’s like they consider it to be good punishment for Bush and good vindication for themselves. That’s what’s disturbing about it to me. I certainly hope that you are not characterising _me_ so, given that I have explicitly stated that I sincerely wish that Iraq gets better just a few posts before yours. > [@](#): > > They use these gloomy interpretations (whether real or not) for no greater purpose than an I-told-you-so. Well, you may question the veracity of **madmonk** ’s interpretation but _my_ purpose (_after_ the I-told-you-so I nevertheless feel entitled to) is to attempt to establish that the invasion of Iraq, without UN sanction or any _debate_ about what the exact plan for intervention _was_, was a **mistake**. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say New York and Bagdad are same same except in the sense that much violence goes unreported, so you can put your straw man back in its carrying case. But surely the current statisticas are an _accurate reflection_ of the level of violence? You are surely not suggesting that there are _unreported_ explosions in New York? > [@](#): > > The point is that all this feigning of surprise, all this downright enjoyment of the mysery for the sake of punishment and/or vindication, and all this hypocrisy of bashing Bush while supporting the efforts to establish peace — these are Neanderthal in their conception. I would suggest that it is _you_ who is mischaracterising Bush’s opponents here. I certainly do _not_ want to see _another_ unsanctioned, shambollically planned intervention in the future. I will advocate whatever is necessary to sort out this **mess** (which, incidentally, I think involves _accepting_ that some cities are under Sharia law outwith Allied control rather than killing thousands in trying to bring them _under_ control), but I believe that a vitally important step in preventing future **messes** is and admission that this **mess** was a **mistake**. I contend that the Iraqi people were statistically better off in the years 1999-2001 than in the years 2002-2004. I _hope_ that, **overall** , we might be able to show that they were statistically better off in the years 2002-2012 than they reasonable _would have been_ had Saddam stayed in power. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/54 "2004-09-30T10:03:49Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > The bombing of populations centers in Germany and Japan did _not_ lead to a collapse of resistance. You _may_ note that I did not mention ‘bombing’ exclusively. > [@](#): > > It’s widely agreed upon by military historians that the strategic bombing campaigns were largely ineffective given the death and destruction they caused (over Germany it was the sustained attacks on oil production and the transportation network that finally produced results). Even if the bombers were dropping rubber duckies, and did not one bit of damage to their targets (which is hardly the case according to the Bombing Survey), the bombing campaign drew off _millions_ of Germans to the AAA crews and infrastructure, not to mention the thousands of 88s that would have no doubt found gainful employment cracking open tanks. Regardless, I am not talking about getting the B-17s out of mothballs; I am talking about using whatever force is neccesary to kill the yahoos opposed to us. If they are using a mosque as a base, then guess what should get taken out? My point can be best illustrated by what happened a few weeks back: A complete Marine regiment was primed and ready to go in and take out Al Sadr and anybody else that looked cock-eyed at them. At the last moment, they were pulled back and (yet another) ‘negotiated’ settlement (that lasted all of days) was reached with Al Sadr. Screw that, let the military do its job. Instead, we get this PR-driven action that the US forces are cornering themselves into. Abu Ghraib is treated like Dachau Redux, and that smacks of weakness. Obviously various elements over there don’t respect anything but overwhelming stregnth, so let’s give it to them. > [@](#): > > After 9/11 there was considerable sympathy for the US in the Muslim world… Sure. [Must be smiles of anguish on their faces, huh?](http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=4030) Regardless, [if this is ‘considerable sympathy’](http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-poll.htm), then we can do without it. > [@](#): > > Kerry favors greater international cooperation and has a chance or gaining more support for Iraq. Our only hope lies in convincing them that’s it was just Bush, not the US as a whole. Well, France and Germany declared that they won’t send troops, even if Kerry is elected, so what will the practical gain of ‘greater international cooperation’ be? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/55 "2004-09-30T10:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If they are using a mosque as a base, then guess what should get taken out? You advocate the destruction of the shrine of Mohammed’s grandson, the third holiest site in the Mulsim world after Mecca and Medina? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/56 "2004-09-30T10:38:48Z")
> [@Sentient](#): > > You advocate an interventionist plan. > Bush has an interventionist plan. > Therefore, you advocate Bush’s interventionist plan. > > Spot the fallacy. You are correct. I stand down. My apologies to all. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/57 "2004-09-30T10:49:04Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > You advocate the destruction of the shrine of Mohammed’s grandson, the third holiest site in the Mulsim world after Mecca and Medina? If they are allowing it to be used as a safe base to operate from, yep. Given the way Islamic (Palestinian, to be exact) gunmen treated the church in Bethlehem, and given the utter ludicrousness of granting the enemy a convenient safe-haven in easy reach, I am not very impressed with the need to treat their armed-to-the-teeth ‘holy’ places with any sort of respect. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/58 "2004-09-30T10:53:33Z")
That was very big of you, **Lib**. Would that all here, myself included, could be so honest with ourselves and others. And fear not, I _did_ appreciate your point, ultimately. I simply feel that these dirty, messy, complicated situations like Iraq are extremely difficult to accomodate into a consistent Big Picture worldview - we must simply _do our best_. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/59 "2004-09-30T10:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > If they are allowing it to be used as a safe base to operate from, yep. Then you dig yourself to their level of barbarism, and unite the entire Muslim world against your psychopathy. My worst fear is that people like you gain important positions in the White House. …Oh _shit_. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643/60 "2004-09-30T11:25:27Z")
Hold yer horses Brutus! We have to be very very careful not to insult the delicate sentiments of Moslems and their gazillion holy lands, holy buildings, holy places, holy cities, holy countries, holy months, holy beards, holy clothes, holy traditions, holy paperclips and holy what-have-you-nots, even when it’s harmful to ourselves because you know the same Moslems have always been so very careful not to infringe upon the religion of other faiths that they even invented a special word for it: Dhimmis. Just think: pogrom of Jews, destruction of Buddhist ancient sculptures, Yom Kippur War, Spanish bombs set to correspond with the Easter rush and not least the cowardly destruction of the holiest of holy within the capitalist faith: The World Trade Centre. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-real-situation-in-iraq/266643.md?page=4)