# What is the realpolitik reason we went to war in the Balkans in the 90s **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881 "2014-02-09T05:07:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/21 "2014-02-10T17:58:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The US looked the other way in Rwanda and Sudan, I don’t see why human rights alone would motivate us in Yugoslavia. Why not? And wouldn’t embarrassment over the failure to act in other places be enough reason to motivate action where it was more feasible? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/22 "2014-02-10T18:10:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Pfft. That’s just a No True Scotsman fallacy. > > Prove that it was out of political gain. You can’t. White people do not help black people unless there is political or economic gain to be had. It’s truly that simple and there’s centuries of U.S policy to back this up. You also have to ask yourself why would America want to help Africans? They already have millions of African-American “refugees” who, by their own admission, have labeled a group of people as the “[Negro Problem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Dilemma)”. Why would the U.S ever go back to Africa to help any country there? Who labels living, breathing human beings as a “Problem” (with a capital P) unless you look at them as subhuman (which the U.S implicitly does). I don’t know much about Operation Restore Hope but I suspect it wasn’t all about helping the poor downtrodden blacks. It has never (and will never) be about that. If that was the case, why not launch Operation Restore Hope in Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia? Don’t worry, that was a rhetorical question :). Operation Restore Hope was likely political, done magnanimously, or a combination of both. [QUOTE=adaher] Didn’t HOnesty just get through touting the virtues of government and condemning anti-government conservatives in another thread? I can’t imagine a more harsh condemnation of our government than what Honesty said in this thread. [/QUOTE] Harsh condemnation? It’s the truth. The U.S foreign policy matches U.S domestic policy in that neither gives a shit about non-whites. The reason U.S intervened in Kosovo (which,by the way, I am glad we did) because the people of Kosovo are white. If the people of Kosovo looked like the Aborigines they would’ve been left to slaughter. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/23 "2014-02-10T18:41:01Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > White people do not help black people unless there is political or economic gain to be had. It’s truly that simple and there’s centuries of U.S policy to back this up. You also have to ask yourself why would America want to help Africans? They already have millions of African-American “refugees” who, by their own admission, have labeled a group of people as the “[Negro Problem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_American_Dilemma)”. Why would the U.S ever go back to Africa to help any country there? Who labels living, breathing human beings as a “Problem” (with a capital P) unless you look at them as subhuman (which the U.S implicitly does). > > I don’t know much about Operation Restore Hope but I suspect it wasn’t all about helping the poor downtrodden blacks. It has never (and will never) be about that. If that was the case, why not launch Operation Restore Hope in Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia? Don’t worry, that was a rhetorical question :). Operation Restore Hope was likely political, done magnanimously, or a combination of both. > > Harsh condemnation? It’s the truth. The U.S foreign policy matches U.S domestic policy in that neither gives a shit about non-whites. The reason U.S intervened in Kosovo (which,by the way, I am glad we did) because the people of Kosovo are white. If the people of Kosovo looked like the Aborigines they would’ve been left to slaughter. > > - Honesty The Serbs of Kosovo are white, and the KLA brutally cleansed them out, with help from NATO. Let’s not forget the Serbs of Serbia, bombed for months. Earlier, the pattern of cleansing was similar for the Serbs of Krajina. There was indeed something of a crude propaganda campaign to render the Serbs as the “other,” but that doesn’t fit with the white supremacist model mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/24 "2014-02-10T18:45:26Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t know much about Operation Restore Hope but I suspect it wasn’t all about helping the poor downtrodden blacks. It has never (and will never) be about that. If that was the case, why not launch Operation Restore Hope in Detroit, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia? Don’t worry, that was a rhetorical question :). Operation Restore Hope was likely political, done magnanimously, or a combination of both. > > Harsh condemnation? It’s the truth. The U.S foreign policy matches U.S domestic policy in that neither gives a shit about non-whites. The reason U.S intervened in Kosovo (which,by the way, I am glad we did) because the people of Kosovo are white. If the people of Kosovo looked like the Aborigines they would’ve been left to slaughter. > > - Honesty What both cases involved that was to the US’ advantage was time. The US doesn’t go to war quickly unless responding to a direct attack. Remember that Bush’s war in Iraq was “rushed” into but took months to get started. What happened in Rwanda didn’t take months. The wheels of intervention move VERY slowly in humanitarian missions. The longer the humanitarian crisis goes on, the more likely Western intervention is. If you just kill everyone fast, there are no consequences. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/25 "2014-02-10T22:51:55Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > A who in the what now? 😕 The reference is to the [No True Scotsman Fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Another description of [No True Scotsman](http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/). > [@](#): > > Prove that your brain isn’t made up of stinky-foot cheese and seasoned offal. You can’t. Do not insult other posters outside The BBQ Pit. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/26 "2014-02-10T23:10:04Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So what was the real reason we went to war in Kosovo? The US looked the other way in Rwanda and Sudan, I don’t see why human rights alone would motivate us in Yugoslavia. Simply unacceptable to have large scale instability so close to central Europe, whether human, economic or political. Can’t quantify the variables or game the complexity so you have to end it. This is like a few hundred miles from the border of the largest manufacturing exporter in the world at the time - you really do have to end it. The markets insist, everyone understands it can’t be allowed. Syria it ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/27 "2014-02-11T00:08:56Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > [NSDD 133](https://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nsdd/23-2222t.gif) starts by mentioning how useful Yugoslavia has been as a buffer, but, later on, it mentions the US desire to work with others to “overcome [Yugoslavia’s] financial difficulties” (think IMF) and **"promote the trend toward an effective, market-oriented economic structure**." Well, I appreciate the cite but I take from it a VERY different message than the one you are imputing. The cited page can’t be copied and pasted and I am too lazy to type it all out myself. Suffice it, then, for me to quote two sentences from your link: > [@link you provided as proof of the US (and other's) malfeasance in the former Yugoslavia](#): > > “The US will continue . . . to support Yugoslavia’s efforts to overcome its financial difficulties”. > > “We will seek to expand US economic relations with Yugoslavia in ways which benefit both countries”. This hardly seems the stuff of hegemonic intent. Then you declare: > [@](#): > > . . . debt-ravaged, shackled Yugoslavia was cut off financially, _unless all six of Yugoslavia’s constituent republics held free and fair multiparty elections without human rights violations_. Imagine that! The nerve! How dare those Yankee imperialists insist on fair elections and respect of human rights. Listen, I respect and appreciate your efforts to provide cites for your opinions. But what you’ve provided does not in any way support your accusations (i.e. your assertion above that “. . . Washington (and London, Bonn/Berlin, Paris, etc.) did not look kindly on a state developing outside (and against!) the neoliberal capitalist model . . .” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/28 "2014-02-11T01:01:18Z")
The United States presented itself as the world leader after 1991. If we wanted the benefits we had to accept the responsibilities. When the killings in Yugoslavia became too big for the world to ignore, we were expected to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/29 "2014-02-11T02:37:15Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Well, I appreciate the cite but I take from it a VERY different message than the one you are imputing. The cited page can’t be copied and pasted and I am too lazy to type it all out myself. Suffice it, then, for me to quote two sentences from your link:This hardly seems the stuff of hegemonic intent. > > Then you declare: > > Imagine that! The nerve! How dare those Yankee imperialists insist on fair elections and respect of human rights. > > Listen, I respect and appreciate your efforts to provide cites for your opinions. But what you’ve provided does not in any way support your accusations (i.e. your assertion above that “. . . Washington (and London, Bonn/Berlin, Paris, etc.) did not look kindly on a state developing outside (and against!) the neoliberal capitalist model . . .” I’ve seen enough of this stuff that I recognize the code, or to put it another way, I like to think I understand what the vague, bureaucratic language means. In the midst of all the boilerplate, there’s the very revealing “market-based” language. When governments (not just that of the US) say that sort of thing, it sure doesn’t mean that they are OK with Titoist “market socialism,” or anybody else’s. It also fits the pattern of NATO’s actions towards Yugoslavia, which ramped up immediately after Yugoslavia’s use as a buffer was over. I italicized the bit about the six separate republics not only because it is suspicious in its hypocrisy (the Kuwaiti dictatorship was violently restored and the Saudi dictatorship was protected, both very publicly, soon after), but because it doesn’t look like that specific stipulation was included in the legislation to encourage federalism and local elections. In concert with the aforementioned actions of the NED, the German government, and other actors, the US government was encouraging secessionist/separatist movements in Yugoslavia, and would continue to do so. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881/30 "2014-02-11T05:02:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The reference is to the [No True Scotsman Fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Another description of [No True Scotsman](http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/). Point taken, but isn’t stating that reference itself a kind of fallacy? (“Appeal to Authority/Antiquity”, for instance.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-realpolitik-reason-we-went-to-war-in-the-balkans-in-the-90s/680881.md?page=1)