That’s cool :). (I just spent half an hour googling the different terms I didn’t understand. Muslim message boards are very enlightening!)
All I can say from experience is, there’s plenty of women in Hijabs who look sexier with them on than without. I dunno, it just sometimes unleashes the ‘forbidden fruit’ factor in me. So yeah, doesn’t seem to be doin’ the trick.
This always makes me giggle a little.
I’m heavily involved with a Muslim population here in Minnesota and if you think for one second that the average* Muslim woman is in any way “oppressed”, that just tells me that you’ve never in your life interacted with any substance outside your own cultural millieu.
I don’t know why this is such a mystery, but let me tell you what most of the world does (or hopes to do) every day: They get up, eat, send the kids to school, go to work, return home, eat, fight with the spouse, have sex, go to sleep, and wake up the next day to do it all over again.
Oh, sure, there’s details - some kids will never see a school; some parents will never make a living wage; some families will try to accomplish all of the above while being shot at, or while not receiving enough food. And some will do all of that while wearing clothes you don’t approve of.
But good god, “their” (whoever they are) typical day is the same as yours. Why do we focus so much on the minor differences when there are so many similarities?
And just in case I haven’t gotten my point across just yet, here’s a direct quote from a column I wrote two years ago for the local rag:
And people get all het up about clothes??
*I said average. Yes, I AM discounting women in Saudi and the Punjab. You know why? They’re not AVERAGE. They live at the extremes, and should be talked about…but even in those places you only hear the horror stories.
I thought about it, but it doesn’t really matter, does it? Christians the world around wear cotton-poly blends despite the proscriptions. MENA dress has a LOT more to do with regional tradition than religious doctrine. Not too many Bosnian Muslims running around in the abaya, after all - they’d freeze to death in winter.
That’s freakin’ fantastic! Got anything else like that? FTR the majority of young women I saw in Irbid (college town in Jordan) wore “hijab sexy” (though usually with all the skin of their chests covered) and the remainder were giving them the trademark (or mini-trademark) glare, *qubaisiya *or not.
I particularly noticed that the chic-est young women were obviously wearing their hair elaborately up under their headscarves, giving an almost beehive-like effect. I found a shop in the college drag with a young man, wearing a lavender kaffiyeh and an unashamed swish, who claimed to have invented the style and was selling homemade DVDs with instructions on how it’s done. (I bought a copy but sadly am unable to play it on my usual DVD player; I have to remember to try it on some alternatives). I was really intrigued and asked people about it when I got the chance; men and women both told me that it was an un-Islamic style, because one’s dress should not reveal the hidden contours of that which one is supposedly concealing. But at least a third of the women on the Irbid campus and environs sported the style.
Point taken, but the OP asked about the “reasoning behind the headscarves worn by Muslim women,” and quoting the relevant passages in the Koran or the Hadith is often offered as reasoning by Muslim women. That is to say, if you ask an actual headscarf-wearing person why she’s wearing a headscarf, she is fairly likely to tell you it’s because Muhammad said women should. She’s perhaps equally likely to tell you it’s because it’s the right thing to do, or that it’s the modest thing to do and she wants to be modest, or that her parents make her, or that she feels naked in public without it, or that she does it to remind herself of her duty to submit to God’s will, or that she does so to show public support for her religious rights, or that she really doesn’t know why. At least in my experience.
Eh, gramma’s neighbor is a Pakistani woman who wears jeans and tshirts (and no headscarf) here but enrobes when she visits family in Islamabad “because they look at me like I’m naked”. I thought it was kind of weird but I’ve since met other women from other nations who have similar views. That’s cultural, not religious.
Unfortunately, no. By favorite cartoon on the subject, I halfway meant only cartoon on the subject :D. This one is by a Syrian blogger ( former blogger these days, it seems ) who went by “Puppeteer”, hence the last panel. She actually seems to be mostly into photography - I’ve only seen her produce the one cartoon. But everyone always loves it.
Did you read the sentence you snipped, the one in which I say that I understand that my intolerance of headscarves is irrational? That’s why I started this thread to begin with. Or are you figuring that because it’s irrational, it deserves to be giggled at? I guess that’s fair.
It’s true that of all my friends, I’ve only known three Muslims, each one for brief periods of time. Two women were from Iran, and another was from UAE if I remember correctly. All three stopped wearing any kind of covering as soon as they came to the US, as soon as they were allowed to do so. So yes, I suppose I haven’t “interacted with any substance outside [my] own cultural millieu” if by that you mean hijab-wearing Muslims. 
Oh, almost forgot, we also had two Muslim speakers in my religion class in high school (in Minnesota). The first was a racist misogynist who I don’t believe was invited back the next year. He said, among other things, that women were beneath men and didn’t belong in public circles (e.g. work outside the home, politics, etc.)
My teacher apologized to the class for getting him as a speaker, and then she got a woman to come the following week. The woman spoke eloquently about Islam and about why she decided to convert. One of the students asked her about her choice to not wear make-up and to cover her hair. Her reaction was one of pure sadness. She explained that she liked her hair, she thought of it as an expression of who she was, and she didn’t at first want to cover it up. She then explained (again, eloquently) why she made that choice. Unfortunately, what stuck with me was the regret, the sadness on her face, and not her eloquent words.
Well, if it helps, it’s not a purposeful focusing on minor differences. It’s a gut reaction any time I see a woman with a headscarf. It’s the gut reaction I’m trying to overcome because it’s not fair to the women.
I am in no way claiming that Muslims are [insert rumor here]. I was asking why Muslim women wear headscarves, that’s all. Don’t make this into more than what it is. I am acknowledging that I have stereotypes (garnered mostly from friends and from books I’ve read); this thread is my attempt to counter them with rational thinking.
FWIW that does come across to me, starryspice. I’m sure you understand that almost everyone has hot-button topics that they feel a moral imperative to express themselves about, even when the communicatee gets it already. This subject is inescapably charged and legitimately rouses high feelings in thoughtful people.
Yes, that’s true. I may have overreacted just now. I just don’t want people getting the wrong idea about me.
Writing this thread has prompted me to look at a bunch of websites, they’ve been enlightening in many ways. Like Tamerlane showed with the cartoon, there appear to be so many ways to wear hijab that it really is an expression of your individuality. But then it immediately became clear that there is guilt associated with any expression of individuality. For example, in this blog several responses to the blogger are admonishing her for not wearing proper hijab, when all she’s doing is showing different ways to wrap the head covering. But then, that may be comparable to Catholic guilt - no matter how good you are, you’re always sinning and there’s always someone there to point it out. (I’m not a Catholic, just seemed like the best analogy.)
Frankly, the subject expressed in the OP (“the headscarf represents the hatred of the Muslim religion towards women”) irritates the living fuck out of me, and I’m an athiest.
It probably wouldn’t bother me nearly so much were it not for the fact that a homegrown American Protestant church - the Southern Baptist Convention, based out of Nashville - has espoused in its doctrine that wives should submit to their husbands. Only that form of hatred is ok, simply because they’re Christian and don’t wear things on their heads? I simply don’t understand the hypocrisy.
Thing is, I’m certain that if I sat down to dinner with an SBC member I’d see the same thing I’ve seen with families from all over the place - that sometimes the wife is a screeching harpy, and sometimes the husband is an unreasonable ass, but most of the time they’re just muddling through like everyone else. And that there isn’t a single religion on the planet that can claim the high ground in the misogyny race.
Well, it irritates the fuck out of me too. I don’t particularly like feeling hatred, it feels ugly and not like what I imagine myself to be. If it makes any difference, I’m not Christian, nor do I espouse any viewpoint, religious or otherwise, in which wives submit to their husbands. I am well aware of these viewpoints (though I’ve met 5 Muslims in my life, but I’ve never met a Southern Baptist that I know of), and I get quite angry about them too. Ask my husband, he’s heard all the tirades, I’m just not focusing on that in this particular thread. So while I don’t think I in particular am a hypocrite, I certainly do understand your argument.
The “headscarves are oppressive” reminds me a lot of 80s feminists railing against high heels. High heel are a sign of our oppression! They only exist to make women look good for men! They restrict movement! They are harmful!
Except high heels can be cute. Sure, if you are wearing stilettos while dancing on a pole for money for crack - maybe you are being exploited. But the vast majority of women wear heels because they are culturally attractive. They don’t feel oppressed wearing heels. Men aren’t forcing three inch heels on women.
In places where women are oppressed by the headscarf, the restrictions on their behavior and dress are usually more restrictive than simply requiring a headscarf.
starryspice, I don’t know if you’ve already looked at these, but I find “Al-Muhajabah” clear and well-written on the subject. She’s done her research.
Why Do You Dress Like That?
On Veiling
Understanding the Face Veil
She is very clear, in particular, that hijab (modest dress, including the headscarf) should NEVER be forced on anyone and that in fact to do so is un-Islamic.
The Question of Choice
But the thing is, starryspice, many of us have these “irrational” reactions. For some of us, when discussing people’s behavior or ideas, the emotional reaction overwhelms the rational or philosophical presentation or explanation. If we are AWARE of that, then we can manage that reaction and keep it from hurting others. But we can’t just turn it off.
Let’s reverse this a bit: remember that lecturer, whom you have said spoke eloquently, yet all you can think of is how you feel you could see regret and sadness? There is a common misconception that the pious, when having to make the sacrifices that their faith requires of them, will be enlightened by God to see what a great thing that was and become joyful and delighted to have made that sacrifice (it is specially a misconception among the would-be pious). Well, no – it IS a sacrifice, after all. For all we know, it can be that she’s “intellectually” convinced that what she’s doing is the righteous thing, but wishes she could clear herself (or that Allah would clear her) of her nostalgic missing of her old ways. She can’t turn it off.
Thank you for the links. Lots for me to read :). I still find plenty to disagree with: I do not spend hours each day on my beauty, I spend minutes. I dress and style myself less to express my sexuality and more to express my individuality. Nevertheless, I can follow her arguments and at least understand why others would choose to follow that path, and that’s all I really want to be able to do.
I’m curious if anyone might know more about Satellite^Guy’s suggestion that covering predated Islam and was actually due to life in the desert? I find this to be the most natural explanation for the start of the tradition (and the links above explain why the tradition has continued).
Well, predated Islam certainly, since as noted it was a standard Christian and Jewish practice and both pre-date Islam by quite a bit ;).
But beyond that Islam of course arose on the Arabian peninsula, where head coverings are still essentially universal among both males and females for environmental reasons, quite apart from religion. Pre-Islamic Arabia was predominantly pagan, with a Jewish minority and a sprinkling of Christians, but regardless of the faith you can be certain they all covered their heads and Bedouin ( male and female ) would wrap the face as well to protect from wind-born sand.
It was emphasized by Islam almost certainly due to Abrahamic traditions ( i.e. it was born out of, or at least heavily influenced by, Christian and Jewish notions of modesty ) and it dove-tailed comfortably with a sexually possessive, patriarchal tribal society. But religious context aside, it was also practical and Occam’s Razor would suggest that that preceded any religious dictates.
It’s not just the Muslim’s. Many Christian demoninations forbid women wearing slacks, some require hats in church, and the Mormons have their famous undergarments.
Covering predated Islam for sure. Covering your head is indeed simply practical in the desert, but having codified rules for how *women *should cover seems to be linked more, in pre-Islamic Arabic areas, to status – veils aren’t practical for manual laborers, so veiling is a public demonstration that you don’t have to work, for instance.