# What is the relationship between Jesus / modern Christianity and Judaism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309 "2010-03-04T18:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/61 "2010-03-08T18:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain;Besides, if you really want to believe that a new covenant superseded an old one then you need to believe that God is a liar and a fraud who reneged on promises made and the very concept of a Divine Covenant is a serving suggestion, read the fine print, void where prohibited, not valid in Judea, shipping and handling may apply.[/QUOTE] Finn, That made me laugh. Shipping and handling may apply… I don’t believe God is a liar. I know the Jews have every right not to believe Jesus was Messiah because he did not fulfill the guide lines to be Messiah. Still many of Christan faith do believe because of this thing called faith. “Through faith man achieves the good of his rational nature”. Pope John Paul II. Now I understand that Jesus was crucified by the Romans and not stoned to death by the Jews. I also did not know Pilate was exiled for his brutality. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/62 "2010-03-08T19:12:09Z")
I have been doing some digging to find out what happened to Pilate. This is taken from the link below and has the most historical backing. Some sites say he was thrown in two rivers but there was nothing to back it up. "We will never know what happened to Pilate after his dismissal. There is an old tradition, however, that Pilate committed suicide on his return. If true, it may have been because he had fallen into disfavor, although there is no reason why he should have. The Christian author Eusebius, who tells the story, thinks that the former governor felt remorse for the execution of Jesus (History of the church, 2.7.1). The Ethiopian church, however, thinks that Pilate became a Christian and was martyred. These Christians have canonized the governor of Judea, whose saint’s day is June 25. The tradition of Pilate’s martyrdom was known in the West, where people thought that he died at Vienna in France, where his tomb was incorrectly identified. Maybe, this legend is an echo from the banishment of another ruler of Judea, Herod Archelaus. Finally, there is a mysterious text known as the Acts of Pilate, a kind of report about the death of Jesus, in which the governor of Judea shows genuine sympathy to those weeping Jews who desire Jesus not to be crucified. Of course, Pilate must have reported about the incident. All governors wrote letters to the emperor, and will have boasted the crucifixion of a pretender. Unfortunately, the Acts of Pilate we possess, are not the original report but a fifth century fabrication. However, the original was accessible in the second century. It is quoted twice in the First Apology of Justin the Martyr, who had to explain Christianity in front of the emperor. He says: And after Jesus was crucified they cast lots upon his vesture, and they that crucified him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. There are these words: ‘At his coming the lame shall leap as an hart, and the tongue of the stammerer shall be clear speaking: the blind shall see, and the lepers shall be cleansed; and the dead shall rise, and walk about.’ And that he did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. It is very unlikely that Justin, whose life was at stake, would have invented a fake report. Besides, the statements attributed to Pilate are not incredible: Pilate would have been a strange pagan if he did not believe reports about miracle workers, and would have been a strange governor if he did not mention these stories in his letter to the emperor. Moreover, the first statement is at odds with the gospels, which state that Jesus’ garments were divided before the crucifixion; a Christian would not write a thing like this. All this suggests that Pilate did indeed write something that Christians felt to be proof of their belief, and that the pagans felt they had to destroy, forcing a devout Christian to write a replacement". [http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate08.html](http://www.livius.org/pi-pm/pilate/pilate08.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/63 "2010-03-08T19:12:44Z")
Well, of course Christians can have faith that Jesus was the messiah. That’s the whole point of Christianity if I understand it correctly, and all folks are entitled to their religious views. The point I was making is that I find Dual-Covenant Theology to be far more palatable and, quite frankly, friendly/civil/respectful than claims that all the Jews are damned, or missed the boat, or that God lied to them, or what have you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/64 "2010-03-08T19:25:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > And yet, the other Gospels are substanially in accordance with Mark on this. Because they used him as a source. Matthew and Luke were not independent reporters. They copied from Mark. > [@](#): > > Secondly, you’ll note that Pilate doesn’t exactly get off lightly. He’s not what you’d call a figure much lauded in the Christian tradition. Not now, but he gets off scott free in the Gospels, and even in early Christian tradition, he was often lauded, not villified. Apocryphal texts such as The _Gospel of Peter_, and the _Acts of Pilate_ exonerate him from the crucifixion, and one of the early orthodox churches canonized him as a saint. > [@](#): > > Tax collectors for Rome, and Roman military/tax policy as a whole, are generally seen as quite vile cheats and frauds. Those tax collectors were Jews, and even so, Jesus partied with them and told people to pay their taxes > [@](#): > > In fact, I see not so much a lauding of ROme but rather a significant ambiguity. They didn’t neccessarily like Roman rule, but acknowledged the Romans are legitimate rulers as well. The two are not impossible to reconcile. Lauding of Rome? No. Circumspection and glossing, yes. The Gosepls are careful not to say that Rome’s authority was illegitimate. > [@](#): > > Yes, I know. I don’t believe I claimed otherwise, anywhere, at any time. I can certainly believe, however, that the chief priests, anxious to smooth over troubles with powers far greater than Pontius Pilate, broke the official law. I can also believe the account is mistaken. In fact, I don’t believe I mentioned it at all. Have you confused me with someone else? I’m saying that since this highly dubious story of a trial originated with the same author who originate the equally dubious story of Pilate (a guy who the contemporary Jewish historian Philo accuses of the utmost and most casual brutality, saying that he routinely executed people without trial, and dealt with crowd protests by simply having soldiers go into the crowd and indiscriminately slaughter people) feeling sorry for a Jewish rabble rouser at Passover. I’m saying that Mark is simply not a credible source for the story (and Mark has a lot more credibility problems than just his passion narrative in any case). > [@](#): > > I have seen several accounts of the exact place of the priests, but I have not seen a source which claims they were chosen particularly by the Romans. Josephus and Philo. After the annexation of Judea in 6 CE, the Jewish high priests were appointed and deposed by the Romans at will. As a result, they were disliked and distrusted by the populace and seen as collaborators with the Romans. They did not have any ability to pressure or intimidate Pilate, having no popular support, but even if they’d had the ability to whip up crowds, we know that Pilate had dealt the angry mobs before by simply by having his soldiers attack them and start killing people indiscriminately until they were subdued. he wasn’t intimidated by mobs. > [@](#): > > I appreciate your knowledge, butI would argue you are partly wrong there. He probably did come into contact with apostles at some point There is no evidence for this, and the internal evidence in the book would argue against it. > [@](#): > > and certainly listened to Paul. Perhaps (he was at least from the Pauline movement), but Paul never met Jesus either. > [@](#): > > Moreover, there were numerous early Christian texts and accounts he probably condensed. Other than the Epistles of Paul, Mark _is_ the earliest known Christian text. While hypotheses about Markan source texts certainly exist, there is no substantial evidence for them other than Paul. The general consensus is that Mark’s sources were from oral tradition, a possible written sayings tradition the Hebrew Bible and his own imagination. > [@](#): > > FInally, his text is not substantially different from the other gospels. That’s because they copied him, as I’ve already said. > [@](#): > > It does not contradict everything, not by a long shot. It contradicts both the definition of God and the definition of the Messiah. > [@](#): > > But more importantly, a new Convenant superceded the old. Even a new covenant would not account for the different definitions of God and the Messiah, though. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/65 "2010-03-23T12:09:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus lived, practiced and taught as a Jew, and it’s unlikely that he ever thought of himself or his movement as anything but Jewish. His minsitry, as described in the Gospels, was conducted well within the norms of Rabbinic tradition for the time (including arguing with Pharisees and Sadducees. Arguing over arcana is a staple of Jewish practice from time immemorial). > > It’s possible he claimed to be the Messiah. This claim, in itself, is not particulrly remarkable or offensive within Jewish tradition. It’s perfectly permissable to make the claim. The hard part is proving it. If you fulfill the expectations (restoring the kingdom of Israel, rebuilding the Temple, bringing world peace, returning all Jews to Israel, causing all the world to worship one God), then congratulations, you proved you’re the Messiah. If you haven’t done these things, then the response is not anger, but simply that you’re deluded, maybe off your meds, maybe just an idiot, but it’s not an affront to Judaism, and failed Messiahs have come and gone before without being rejected as Jews, or necessarily causing any hard feelings. > > What does irreconcilably separate the Christian movement from Judiasm is the claim (whether it was made by Jesus himself, or his followers afterward) that he was God. In Judaism, people can’t be God, and God can’t be a person. Not even the Messiah is God, and Jesus wasn’t even the Messiah. > > The idea that a pesron could be God was much more normal and acceptable among Gentiles, and Christianity fairly quickly became an almot exclusively Gentile movement, while contemorary Jews (if they had any knowledge of Jesus at all), just saw him, at best, as another failed Messiah. Reliable information about the eariest movement is difficult to come by, but it’s possible that he generated some excitement and built a following before he was killed, but for the vast majority of Jews (then and now) his death was a de facto refutation of his Messiahship. In Judaism, Messiahship is defined by accomplishment, not birthright. You’re not the M\ > The way that Jews view Jesus as a person and a Jew is variable. Obviously, the history of anti-semitic violence and oppression by Christians against Jews has made the figure of “Christ” off-putting to a lot of Jews. Some say he taught nothing new, was unremarkable as a teacher and possibly crazy. Others do feel sense of pride and ownership of him – recognize him as a product of their people and traditions and feel that it wasn’t his fault that his name and mission were appropriated in the manner they were after his death. Some rabbis have argud that Jesus should be reclaimed and recognized as a Jew – not just a Jew but the most famous Jew in history, and the most famous ethical teacher (arguments over the originality of that teaching is somewhat immaterial in this regard, because the teachings are still essentially Jewish either way). > > I think an awful lot of Jews (maybe a majority) view him basically with indifference, though. Just not a historical figure they give much thought too. > > I will say that I don’t think I’ve ever encountered any Jewish feelings of _hosility_ towrads him, though. He doesn’t get blamed for Christianity. You state in Judaism man can’t be Gods; how do you explain the psalmist saying “I say you are gods, sons of the most high”? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/66 "2010-03-23T12:29:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > My impression of those I was with is that they are actually trying to combine the two. I’ve known some that said that Jesus wasn’t really God, but just the prophet who got closest to God. > > I also want to point out that every single one of Jesus’s miracles has a counterpart in the Old Testament. It can almost seem like an amalgamation. Water to wine would have to equal turning bad water into good, but other than that, they’re actually all equivalent. > > Well, except the whole coming back from the dead thing. According to the NT Jesus didn’t consider himself anymore divne than any one else.When accused of blasphmey He referred to the psalmist,and said "Why do say I blasphenme because I call God my father, when your fathers did?’ He was also quoted by Mark and Matthew as saying He would return in Glory with His angel while some of the ones standing there at that time listening to Him were still alive. there is no record of that happening, so it must not have happened, and people have been waiting for over 2,000 years for Him to come back; just as the Jews have been waiting for over 4,000 years for a Messiah, and the Muslims are still waiting for Muhammad to return. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/67 "2010-03-23T13:14:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You state in Judaism man can’t be Gods; how do you explain the psalmist saying “I say you are gods, sons of the most high”? The term “elohim” literally means "mighty ones’ and is occasionally used to refer to human dignitaries who are to represent God by fairly & wisely applying His Torah Law. Psalm 82 is God judging His human representatives as failing their responsibilities. When his enemies accused him of blasphemy for claiming Deity, Jesus turned it around on them that God Himself delegates His authority to His people so why do they attack him? However, I could give you many NT passages where JC makes unique Divine claims which set him over the rest of humanity & shows that he thought of himself, if as not God, then as the next best thing. You keep going back to this one passage which does not prove what you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309/68 "2010-03-24T11:24:20Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > The term “elohim” literally means "mighty ones’ and is occasionally used to refer to human dignitaries who are to represent God by fairly & wisely applying His Torah Law. Psalm 82 is God judging His human representatives as failing their responsibilities. > > When his enemies accused him of blasphemy for claiming Deity, Jesus turned it around on them that God Himself delegates His authority to His people so why do they attack him? However, I could give you many NT passages where JC makes unique Divine claims which set him over the rest of humanity & shows that he thought of himself, if as not God, then as the next best thing. You keep going back to this one passage which does not prove what you think it does. It is a matter of intrepratation. One can change it to suit their own beliefs. Being that it was written by humans we can take it with a grain of salt. Jesus is quoted as saying many times, My Father and Yours, He taught them to pray to ‘Our Father’, the fact that He was quoted as praying to 'The Father", and only 'The Father knows, etc. shows he did not feel he had the power of the Father. It is a matter of believing in the author of the writings. Or what one wants to believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-between-jesus-modern-christianity-and-judaism/531309.md?page=3)