# What is the relationship of the Marines to the Navy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928 "2005-10-19T16:30:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/41 "2005-10-21T17:48:11Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you and i’m not crying out loud. Here you have a sailor and a marine patiently explaining to you that the Marines are Part of the Navy. In fact _an integral part_. Many of those posting in this thread are not aware of the close historical relationship the two services have, and probably many of them have no idea who the Merchant Marines are. Why, they are marines! But…they live on and operate ships. Oh the confusement. Don’t let the stereotypes confuse you all - there is a very fine, and sometimes indiscriminate line between what a sailor is, and what a marine is. Did you miss the part where I noted that I was in the Navy, too? I was on active duty for more than ten years. My service time included teaching at the Naval Academy Prep School, which has students who are enlisted in the U.S. Navy, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Coast Guard, as well as candidates for the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy. I’m well aware of the relationship between the various sea services. That being said, I’ve NEVER heard anyone in the Navy or Marine Corps who espoused a notion like “there is a very fine, and sometimes indiscriminate line between what a sailor is, and what a marine is.” I would doubt that someone who stated such a thing ever served a day in either service. You might note, too that a term often used to emphasize the close relationship between the USN and USMC is the “Navy/Marine Corps team.” We also have the “Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal.” In both of these examples, notice that it is the Navy AND the Marine Corps, two co-equal services. In short, I stand by my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/42 "2005-10-21T18:37:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve NEVER heard anyone in the Navy or Marine Corps who espoused a notion like “there is a very fine, and sometimes indiscriminate line between what a sailor is, and what a marine is.” Please see the title of the thread: _What is the relationship of the Marines to the Navy?_ In the context of the United States, and the United States alone, the Department of the Navy provides marines who attacks the land from the sea. The Department of the Navy also provides the fleet who get the marines from the sea to the land. Not understanding the very fine line between what makes a marine and what makes a sailor represents a lack of historical context. Here I will clearly define them for you. All definitions are from the Oxford English Dictionary. A **Marine** is: [ul] [li]1575: A sailor or mariner.[/li][li]1669:In the governments of certain countries (originally and chiefly France): a department which administers the navy[/li][li]1806: Naut. slang. An incompetent seaman.[/li][li]1829: The collective shipping, fleet, navy, or naval service of a country; seagoing vessels collectively, esp. with reference to nationality or class, as in mercantile marine (now hist.) or merchant marine.[/li][/ul] I said earlier that if it were the Department of the Marines it would be a _qualitative difference_, chiefly because this is the case in some foreign countries, _but not the USA_. A **Mariner** is: [ul] [li]1300: A person who navigates or assists in navigating a ship; a sailor. In Law, more generally: any person employed on a ship. Also in extended use.[/li][li]1450: A fighting man on board ship; a marine.[/li][/ul] A **Sailor** is: [ul] [li]1585: One who is professionally occupied with navigation; a seaman, mariner. Also, in narrower sense, applied (like ‘seaman’) to a member of a ship’s company below the rank of officer.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/43 "2005-10-21T18:41:32Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you and i’m not crying out loud. Here you have a sailor and a marine patiently explaining to you that the Marines are Part of the Navy. In fact _an integral part_. Many of those posting in this thread are not aware of the close historical relationship the two services have, and probably many of them have no idea who the Merchant Marines are. Why, they are marines! But…they live on and operate ships. Oh the confusement. Don’t let the stereotypes confuse you all - there is a very fine, and sometimes indiscriminate line between what a sailor is, and what a marine is. Your last sentance doesn’t make any sense. I was a Sailor and have several friends who were Marines. There is a huge very large bold line as to what a Sailor or a Marine is in terms of history, training, mission and day to day responsibilities and duties. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/44 "2005-10-21T19:22:50Z")
The composition of the Navy and the Marine Corps is not a matter of tradition. It is governed by U.S. law. There is a specific answer to the question under U.S. law. If Admiral Nimitiz himself were to rise from his grave and give a different answer, he would be wrong. “The Navy” refers to the United States Navy, not the Department of the Navy. It does not include the United States Marine Corps. [CITE.](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00005001----000-.html) > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 503 \> § 5001. Definitions > (a) In this subtitle: > (1) The term “Navy” means the United States Navy. It includes the Regular Navy, the Fleet Reserve, and the Naval Reserve. > (2) The term “Marine Corps” means the United States Marine Corps. It includes the Regular Marine Corps, the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, and the Marine Corps Reserve. > (3) The term “member of the naval service” means a person appointed or enlisted in, or inducted or conscripted into, the Navy or the Marine Corps. The Department of the Navy is separately organized under the Secretary of the Navy. [CITE](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00005011----000-.html). > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 503 \> § 5011. Organization > > The Department of the Navy is separately organized under the Secretary of the Navy. It operates under the authority, direction, and control of the Secretary of Defense. The Department of the Navy is headed by a civilian, not a member of the Armed Forces. [CITE.](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00005013----000-.html) > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 503 \> § 5013 Secretary of the Navy > > (a) (1) There is a Secretary of the Navy, appointed from civilian life by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. The Secretary is the head of the Department of the Navy. The United States Navy, or simply “Navy” is an autonomous uniformed military organization _within_ the Department of the Navy. There is a specific law in the U.S. Code regarding the composition of the Navy. There is no Marine Corps within the United States Navy. [CITE.](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00005062----000-.html) > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 507 § 5062. United States Navy: composition; functions > > (a) The Navy, within the Department of the Navy, includes, in general, naval combat and service forces and such aviation as may be organic therein. The Navy shall be organized, trained, and equipped primarily for prompt and sustained combat incident to operations at sea. It is responsible for the preparation of naval forces necessary for the effective prosecution of war except as otherwise assigned and, in accordance with integrated joint mobilization plans, for the expansion of the peacetime components of the Navy to meet the needs of war. > > (b) All naval aviation shall be integrated with the naval service as part thereof within the Department of the Navy. Naval aviation consists of combat and service and training forces, and includes land-based naval aviation, air transport essential for naval operations, all air weapons and air techniques involved in the operations and activities of the Navy, and the entire remainder of the aeronautical organization of the Navy, together with the personnel necessary therefor. > > © The Navy shall develop aircraft, weapons, tactics, technique, organization, and equipment of naval combat and service elements. Matters of joint concern as to these functions shall be coordinated between the Army, the Air Force, and the Navy. The United States Marine Corps is an autonomous uniformed military organization _within_ the Department of the Navy. There is a specific law in the U.S. Code regarding the composition of the United States Marine Corps. It is not a part of the United States Navy, or simply, “the Navy.” [CITE.](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00005063----000-.html) > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 507 \> § 5063. United States Marine Corps: composition; functions > > (a) The Marine Corps, within the Department of the Navy, shall be so organized as to include not less than three combat divisions and three air wings, and such other land combat, aviation, and other services as may be organic therein. The Marine Corps shall be organized, trained, and equipped to provide fleet marine forces of combined arms, together with supporting air components, for service with the fleet in the seizure or defense of advanced naval bases and for the conduct of such land operations as may be essential to the prosecution of a naval campaign. In addition, the Marine Corps shall provide detachments and organizations for service on armed vessels of the Navy, shall provide security detachments for the protection of naval property at naval stations and bases, and shall perform such other duties as the President may direct. However, these additional duties may not detract from or interfere with the operations for which the Marine Corps is primarily organized. > > (b) The Marine Corps shall develop, in coordination with the Army and the Air Force, those phases of amphibious operations that pertain to the tactics, technique, and equipment used by landing forces. > > © The Marine Corps is responsible, in accordance with integrated joint mobilization plans, for the expansion of peacetime components of the Marine Corps to meet the needs of war. The Marine Corps is not a part of the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/45 "2005-10-21T19:24:02Z")
I happen to be a retired Sailor. I also am fully capable, as I have evidenced in this very thread, of reading and correctly describing the organizational relationships of two _different_ uniformed services. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/46 "2005-10-21T19:58:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The term “member of the **naval service** ” means a person appointed or enlisted in, or inducted or conscripted into, the Navy or the Marine Corps. Gee, what’s the naval service? > [@Oxford English Dictionary](#): > > [ul] > [li]Of a military force: consisting of warships; belonging to a **navy**.[/li][li] Of a nation or power: possessing a **navy** , esp. a strong one. Of a nation’s strength, etc.: distinguished by, based on, or considered in terms of the possession of warships or a **navy**.[/li][li]Of a person: belonging to, connected with, or serving in a **navy**.[/li][/ul] You mean we had all this brouhaha because fully-capable analyzers of organizational relationships were unable to realize that the phrase “Department of the **Navy** ” _contains people who are enlisted and comissioned in naval service, which means they are part of this country’s naval force, heretofore known as our Navy?_ What part of the word “Navy” in “Department of the Navy” do you not understand? If, as **pravnik** has shown us, “Navy” refers to the “United States Navy” then there are two logical possibilities: [ol] [li]The “Department of the Navy” should be expanded to the “Department of the United States Navy”[/li][li]The “Department of the Navy” _is our country’s Navy and utilizes the more commonly known, historical, and traditional form of the word_[/li][/ol] The Marine Corps is part of this country’s “naval” services, however you want to say it. Isn’t indirect self-reference grand? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/47 "2005-10-21T20:08:26Z")
What part of “The Department of the Navy is composed of the Navy and the Marine Corps, two distinct uniformed services” do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/48 "2005-10-21T20:12:02Z")
BTW, as the author of the OP I think I do understand now their relationship, regardless of the (apparently) samantic exercise going on here. Thanks to everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/49 "2005-10-21T20:19:19Z")
If the Marine Corps were part of the Navy, that means your ordinary leatherneck could potentially rise in the ranks to command a ship. Would that ever happen? ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/50 "2005-10-21T20:21:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > What part of “The Department of the Navy is composed of the Navy and the Marine Corps, two distinct uniformed services” do you not understand? The Navy[sub]1[/sub] and Marine Corps are part of the Department of the Navy[sub]2[/sub]. The Navy[sub]1[/sub] and Marine Corps are two distinct naval services. Naval means “[belonging to or used in a Navy[sub]2[/sub]](http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&ei=H0xZQ5e8Oqi2iwGn_7XpAg&sig2=49V6P-pJR3NwZ5qOwEaxiA&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dnaval)”. The Marine Corps are part of the Navy[sub]2[/sub]. Please, please, get this. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/51 "2005-10-21T20:33:06Z")
As a general rule of construction, when the U.S. Code has specific definitions that conflict with one’s reading of the dictionary, the U.S. Code takes precedence. > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 503 \> § 5001. **DEFINITIONS** > (a) In this subtitle: > (1) The term “Navy” means the United States Navy. It includes the Regular Navy, the Fleet Reserve, and the Naval Reserve. > (2) The term “Marine Corps” means the United States Marine Corps. It includes the Regular Marine Corps, the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, and the Marine Corps Reserve. > (3) The term “member of the naval service” means a person appointed or enlisted in, or inducted or conscripted into, the Navy **or** the Marine Corps. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/52 "2005-10-21T20:36:45Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > Please, please, get this. Please, please, read the posting just above. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/53 "2005-10-21T20:40:32Z")
You both wonderfully did not address my post. If you want the expansion of the definition of Navy to take place, then “Department of the Navy” becomes “Department of the United States Navy”. I don’t think you want it to mean that - I think you want it to mean exactly what it does mean - that the United States Navy and United States Marines are two distinct naval services in the United States, and that our naval services _comprise our country’s Navy[sub]2[/sub]_. You can pretend that “naval service” doesn’t mean Navy, but that is clearly disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/54 "2005-10-21T20:41:41Z")
Do you delight in being intentionally obtuse? Neither pravnik nor I said what you just pretended we said. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/55 "2005-10-21T20:47:56Z")
As a general rule of legal construction, when the U.S. Code has specific definitions that conflict with one’s reading of the dictionary, the U.S. Code takes precedence. > [@](#): > > TITLE 10 \> Subtitle C \> PART I \> CHAPTER 503 \> § 5001. **DEFINITIONS** > (a) In this subtitle: > (1) The term “Navy” means the United States Navy. It includes the Regular Navy, the Fleet Reserve, and the Naval Reserve. > (2) The term “Marine Corps” means the United States Marine Corps. It includes the Regular Marine Corps, the Fleet Marine Corps Reserve, and the Marine Corps Reserve. > (3) The term “member of the naval service” means a person appointed or enlisted in, or inducted or conscripted into, the Navy **or** the Marine Corps. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/56 "2005-10-21T20:49:43Z")
Whoops…accidental repost. I didn’t think the first one got through, which is ironic now that I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![alterego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6bbea6/32.png) [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/57 "2005-10-21T20:57:30Z")
I am now walking away from this post with the knowledge that there are people on the Straight Dope Message Board, which is here to fight ignorance, who are content with the belief that the two uniformed services which comprise the “Department of the `Navy’”, and for which they will admit make up the “naval services” or what have you, honestly believe that one of those services is not part of this country’s “Navy”, and I am scratching my head in disbelief, _for that is truly ignorant_. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/58 "2005-10-21T21:33:44Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > _for that is truly ignorant_. No, it’s quite clearly correct. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/59 "2005-10-21T21:41:30Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > I am now walking away from this post with the knowledge that there are people on the Straight Dope Message Board, which is here to fight ignorance, who are content with the belief that the two uniformed services which comprise the “Department of the `Navy’”, and for which they will admit make up the “naval services” or what have you, honestly believe that one of those services is not part of this country’s “Navy”, and I am scratching my head in disbelief, _for that is truly ignorant_. There’s definitely some ignorance going on here… Oh, and for the record, I honestly believe that the U.S. Marine Corps is not part of the U.S. Navy. –robby (LCDR, USNR) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928/60 "2005-10-21T21:47:31Z")
> [@alterego](#): > > You both wonderfully did not address my post. If you want the expansion of the definition of Navy to take place, then “Department of the Navy” becomes “Department of the United States Navy”. BTW, this is one of the most bizarre posts I’ve ever seen in GQ. Do you seriously think anybody is arguing for recursive evaluation of the phrase, “Department of the Navy?” That’s nuttier than a big can of mixed nuts. “Department of the Navy” and “The Navy” are two entirely unrelated proper nouns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-marines-to-the-navy/326928.md?page=4)