# What is the second-oldest presidential/congressional republic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357 "2014-12-16T03:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/1 "2014-12-16T03:49:32Z")
The United States is the oldest presidential/congressional republic in the world, dating to 1788, when the Constitution was ratified. (Not necessarily the oldest republic; San Marino claims that title, and Switzerland is also in the running). So what is the second-oldest presidential/congressional republic in the world? I’m interested in a presidential/congressional republic, similar in constitutional structure to the US, which has had an uninterrupted run to the present day since its constitution was ratified. I’m excluding countries that have been conquered, or had a military dictatorship, or a parliamentary republic. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/2 "2014-12-16T03:56:55Z")
Colombia perhaps? If I’m not mistaken it has been a continuous republic with both legislative and executive branches since its original incarnation as “Gran Colombia” in 1819. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/3 "2014-12-16T04:05:22Z")
I don’t think so; according to the wiki article on [Colombia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia#20th_century): > [@](#): > > Soon after, Colombia achieved some degree of political stability, which was interrupted by a bloody conflict that took place between the late 1940s and the early 1950s, a period known as La Violencia (“The Violence”). Its cause was mainly mounting tensions between the two leading political parties, which subsequently ignited after the assassination of the Liberal presidential candidate Jorge Eliécer Gaitán on 9 April 1948. The ensuing riots in Bogotá, known as El Bogotazo, spread throughout the country and claimed the lives of at least 180,000 Colombians.[57] > > … > > From 1953 to 1964 the violence between the two political parties decreased first when Gustavo Rojas deposed the President of Colombia in a coup d’état and negotiated with the guerrillas, and then under the military junta of General Gabriel París Gordillo. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/4 "2014-12-16T04:12:07Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Colombia perhaps? If I’m not mistaken it has been a continuous republic with both legislative and executive branches since its original incarnation as “Gran Colombia” in 1819. It was a military dictatorship as recently as 1953-1958, though, so it’s excluded by the OP. Nearly every country in Latin America has been under a dictatorship at some point since 1950. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/5 "2014-12-16T04:17:35Z")
Oops, sorry. I’ve heard Colombians talk about having the second oldest democracy ([this site](http://www.vacationsincolombia.com/about-colombia) even calls it “uninterrupted”) - too bad about that 1950s period. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/6 "2014-12-16T04:28:54Z")
Are you just considering the form of government, or also how it worked in practice? Mexico has had the form of a legislative/presidential government at least since the constitution of 1857, and their current constitution dates to 1917. However, Mexico was effectively a one-party state from 1929 to 2000, and Porfirio Diaz ruled in an authoritarian manner (though through democratic forms) from the late 1800s to 1910. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/7 "2014-12-16T04:35:51Z")
The Swiss cantons have a republican form of government, with distinct legislative and executive organs, and in most cases this long predates the American republic. However the executive bodies tend to be collective - executive power is wielded by a council, rather than an individual chief executive - and the overriding tradition of direct democracy means that in practice the executive organ doesn’t absolutely hold supreme executive power, and the legislative organ doesn’t hold supreme legislative power; both may be overridden by the people. So they probably don’t meet the OP’s conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/8 "2014-12-16T04:40:32Z")
Hmm. That’s a good question. [ETA: responding to **Colibri’s** question.] I guess one of the hallmarks of a republic is a relatively free and legal system of government, even if the franchise is restricted; otherwise it’s a form of dictatorship with the trappings of a republic to camauflauge its authoritarianism. I don’t really know enough about Mexican history to comment. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/9 "2014-12-16T04:44:08Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Oops, sorry. I’ve heard Colombians talk about having the second oldest democracy ([this site](http://www.vacationsincolombia.com/about-colombia) even calls it “uninterrupted”) - too bad about that 1950s period. I’ve heard Haitians make the same claim, though it’s a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/10 "2014-12-16T04:44:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The Swiss cantons have a republican form of government… I don’t think they fit, no - the collective executive, chosen in some way by the legislative branch, seems sufficiently different from the US model to not fit my query. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/11 "2014-12-16T04:48:21Z")
[Haiti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti#20th_century): I don’t think so: > [@](#): > > Papa Doc’s son Jean-Claude Duvalier – known also as “Baby Doc” – who led the country from 1971 until his ouster in 1986. In 1986, protests against “Baby Doc” led him to seek exile in France. Army leader General Henri Namphy headed a new National Governing Council.[76][not in citation given] General elections in November were aborted after dozens of inhabitants were shot in the capital by soldiers and Tontons Macoutes. Fraudulent elections followed. The elected President, Leslie Manigat, was overthrown some months later in the June 1988 Haitian coup d’état. The September 1988 Haitian coup d’état, which followed the St Jean Bosco massacre, revealed the increasing prominence of former Tontons Macoutes. General Prosper Avril led a military regime until March 1990. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/12 "2014-12-16T04:54:37Z")
Hence, my qualifier. Their claim might have been “The Western hemisphere’s second republic,” but even that claim needs qualifiers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/13 "2014-12-16T04:59:29Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t really know enough about Mexican history to comment. Between 1929 and 2000, Mexico wasn’t exactly a dictatorship but wasn’t a real democracy either. The Partido Revolucionario Institucional won every election up to 1982 by margins of 70% or more, usually through massive fraud. Since 1934 the President was limited to a single six-year term, but under the PRI regime each one effectively chose his own successor. However, the constitutional forms have been complied with; no president has tried to prolong his own term. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/14 "2014-12-16T05:04:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > [Haiti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti#20th_century): I don’t think so: Even if you classify republican dictatorships as republics, Haiti was actually a legit _monarchy_ on at least one occasion, so it fails the test. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/15 "2014-12-16T13:13:14Z")
So, based on what **Colibri** has posted, the South and Central American countries have all had coups and dictatorships since the 1950s. Mexico has had the form of a presidential/congressional republic for about a century, but was essentially a one-party state for most of the 20th century. Is there no better contender than Mexico for second-oldest congressional/presidential republic? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/16 "2014-12-16T13:43:58Z")
Costa Rica has had a functioning republican government since 1948, which sounds more significant than the Mexican example. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/17 "2014-12-16T14:01:38Z")
If we can exclude Latin America based on the fact their supposed “republics” were effectively dictatorships, maybe we can include the UK based on the fact its supposed “monarchy” is effectively a republic, and has been for centuries. Yes, yes, being able to see through sham elections is wonderful but if you call a figurehead a figurehead you’re suddenly grossly incorrect and missing the point and so on. Meanwhile, the Britons-and-Northern-Irish-and-Manx-and-Channel-Islanders-and-Whoever-Else are voting MPs into and out of office and holding referenda and fully expecting that HRH wouldn’t dare to ignore the people’s decision, even if it comes in the form of a BNP MP. Now tell me how ignorant I am of how the UK’s government works, and how utterly unlike a representative democracy it is. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/18 "2014-12-16T14:07:31Z")
I appreciate that there Are arguments that the Commonwealth realms like the UK and Canada are “crowned republics” but I’m not asking about democracies or republics in general. I’m asking about a republic organized on a presidential/congressional model, with a fairly strict separation of powers. I’m not asking about parliamentary republics, where there is a fusion between the executive and the legislature, so the UK is out, as are republics like Germany, Italy and Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/19 "2014-12-16T14:18:45Z")
> **[Crowned republic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowned_republic)** > > A crowned republic, also known as a monarchial republic, is an informal term that has been used to refer to a system of monarchy where the monarch's role may be seen as almost entirely ceremonial and where nearly all of the royal prerogatives are exercised in such a way that the monarch personally has little power over executive and constitutional issues. The term has been used by a small number of authors (below) to informally describe governments such as Australia and the United Kingdom, althou... ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357/20 "2014-12-16T15:13:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > … > > So what is the second-oldest presidential/congressional republic in the world? I’m interested in a presidential/congressional republic, similar in constitutional structure to the US, which has had an uninterrupted run to the present day since its constitution was ratified. > > I’m excluding countries that have been conquered, or had a military dictatorship, or a parliamentary republic. My first thought when starting to read the thread was France, but then I don’t think it counts because they’ve had a few revolutions, constitutional redoes, and were temporarily conquered by Hitler. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-second-oldest-presidential-congressional-republic/707357.md?page=2)