# What is the secular purpose of DOMA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983 "2012-03-27T21:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/81 "2012-03-28T03:04:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So we’re moving goalposts from “what possible secular purpose could it have” to “is it solely for this purpose”? What’s more, the goal post was immediately moved from “What is the law’s secular purpose,” to “Is that purpose 100% persuasive and defensible against all arguments.” If Congress thought “The best type of union is between one man and one woman,” and limited the spread of same-sex unions accordingly, the fact that I think they’re _wrong_ about that, or that they should have taken other factors into consideration, doesn’t mean it wasn’t (or couldn’t have been) their purpose. Any government in the business of officially recognizing certain unions is going to have to draw _some_ line, and unless some branch of the state individually investigates every individual set of circumstances to ensure a particular setup furthers whatever the state says its interests are, there are going to be some outliers that aren’t covered, and some that are that don’t further any of the state’s interests. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/82 "2012-03-28T03:08:15Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > The secular interest is in preserving the best, most enviable environment for raising children. This, one could argue, is society’s defense (or offense) against itself. So DOMA also make it illegal for there to be any children born out of wedlock or parents to get divorced or sterile people to get married because whats the use if they can’t have children ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/83 "2012-03-28T03:16:41Z")
In adoptive families it appears that the gender of the parents ammounts to a hill of beans. [ > [@](#): > > In summary, parental sexual orientation did not > emerge as an important predictor of any outcomes. > It was not significantly associated with parents’ or > teachers’ reports of child behavior problems, with par- > ents’ reports of children’s gender development, or with > parents’ reports of parent or couple adjustment. Thus, > the data were consistent with the first two hypotheses. ]([http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/ffp10b.pdf](http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/ffp10b.pdf)) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/84 "2012-03-28T03:17:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So DOMA also make it illegal for there to be any children born out of wedlock > or parents to get divorced > or sterile people to get married because whats the use if they can’t have children **shy guy** addressed your concerns in post #68 ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/85 "2012-03-28T03:19:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Its secular purpose is to get conservative politicians re-elected by pandering to their base, which is full of religious fanatics and bigots. What an incredible poignant and sharp contribution to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/86 "2012-03-28T03:22:26Z")
**Terr** , there’s a lot of children needing adopting. Why do you feel a gay family wouldn’t be good enough for them?☹ ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/87 "2012-03-28T03:23:08Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > What an incredible poignant and sharp contribution to the conversation. So do you want to address any of the cites I posted where religion was invoked in the lobbying for the passage of DOMA? Or any evidence that there is any compelling reason for the state to limit gay marriage or are ad hominems the only argument you are willing to present? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/88 "2012-03-28T03:23:12Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > **Terr** , there’s a lot of children needing adopting. Why do you feel a gay family wouldn’t be good enough for them?☹ Why do you think I feel that way? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/89 "2012-03-28T03:25:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do you think I feel that way? Because you’re advocating marriage for only reproductive couples, which implies no other kinds of families. Why shouldn’t gay couples be allowed to get married and provide a stable home to children who need one? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/90 "2012-03-28T03:34:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Because you’re advocating marriage for only reproductive couples, which implies no other kinds of families. First of all, I am not advocating anything, I gave the “secular purpose” that the OP asked. If I am advocating anything, is that the state allow unions of any kind, of any number of people, with only the age restriction due to consent issues. If Grandma, her granddaughter and granddaughter’s boyfriend all want to “marry” each other, why should the state stand in the way? Or, even better, that the state does not concern itself with any unions whatsoever. Second - gay couple can and do marry and provide a stable home to children today. It’s just that the US federal government found that it’s not interested to encourage and support such marriages. State governments, of course, can and do what they want about it. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/91 "2012-03-28T03:34:38Z")
[ > [@](#): > > The results of this study indicate that adoption does > not significantly affect the outcome of young adults > when family background effects are controlled. ]([Economics](http://www.iwu.edu/economics/PPE17/spear.pdf)) Natural parents are not better, so if gay adoptive parents (cited up thread) are not worse what do you have. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/92 "2012-03-28T03:35:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First of all, I am not advocating anything, I gave the “secular purpose” that the OP asked. If I am advocating anything, is that the state allow unions of any kind, of any number of people, with only the age restriction due to consent issues. Or, even better, that the state does not concern itself with any unions whatsoever. > > Second - gay couple can and do marry and provide a stable home to children today. It’s just that the US federal government found that it’s not interested to encourage and support such marriages. State governments, of course, can and do what they want about it. Unless they want survivors right, work for the federal government or like to travel to other states. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/93 "2012-03-28T03:37:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Unless they want survivors right, work for the federal government or like to travel to other states. … because the Federal government doesn’t find it in its interest to promote or encourage homosexual marriage. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/94 "2012-03-28T03:37:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First of all, I am not advocating anything, I gave the “secular purpose” that the OP asked. If I am advocating anything, is that the state allow unions of any kind, of any number of people, with only the age restriction due to consent issues. If Grandma, her granddaughter and granddaughter’s boyfriend all want to “marry” each other, why should the state stand in the way? Or, even better, that the state does not concern itself with any unions whatsoever. > > Second - gay couple can and do marry and provide a stable home to children today. It’s just that the US federal government found that it’s not interested to encourage and support such marriages. State governments, of course, can and do what they want about it. I have given evidence your secular reason is invalid, and only based in fear of the unknown or bigotry, please provide another. It was not the original reason the law was pushed nor is it valid based on outcome studies. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/95 "2012-03-28T03:38:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I have given evidence your secular reason is invalid, and only based in fear of the unknown or bigotry, please provide another. No you haven’t. As I said, homosexual marriages cannot naturally produce children. The state is interested in demographically propagating itself. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/96 "2012-03-28T03:38:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … because the Federal government doesn’t find it in its interest to promote or encourage homosexual marriage. Why, they have to have a reason to deny someone of their equal protection rights. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/97 "2012-03-28T03:39:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First of all, I am not advocating anything, I gave the “secular purpose” that the OP asked. If I am advocating anything, is that the state allow unions of any kind, of any number of people, with only the age restriction due to consent issues. Or, even better, that the state does not concern itself with any unions whatsoever. > > Second - gay couple can and do marry and provide a stable home to children today. It’s just that the US federal government found that it’s not interested to encourage and support such marriages. State governments, of course, can and do what they want about it. Except the secular purpose was just demonstrated to be false. Gay couples can have kids, it’s called adoption. Therefore any law that claims to be for kid raising must rationally include them, or it is bigoted and hateful. Why does the Federal government have an interest in promoting bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/98 "2012-03-28T03:40:00Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Why, they have to have a reason to deny someone of their equal protection rights. No compelling state interest. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/99 "2012-03-28T03:41:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Except the secular purpose was just demonstrated to be false. Gay couples can have kids, it’s called adoption. Therefore any law that claims to be for kid raising must rationally include them, or it is bigoted and hateful. > > Why does the Federal government have an interest in promoting bigotry? Post #68. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/100 "2012-03-28T03:41:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No you haven’t. As I said, homosexual marriages cannot naturally produce children. The state is interested in demographically propagating itself. The state feels adopted kids don’t deserve families? Raising them in stable homes is not part of propagating? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=6)