# What is the secular purpose of DOMA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983 "2012-03-27T21:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/121 "2012-03-28T04:20:36Z")
[QUOTE] > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Thanks for admitting the law was intended to push religious beliefs on others but you may want to back a page. I provided studies that demonstrated it is not a better environment. I’m not sure how maintaining something that has been understood for thousands of years is pushing anything. It is the anti-domas who are pushing their agenda on others. The shoe fits on both feet at least. > [@](#): > > Slavery and treating women as chattel were also biblical religious concepts. Even if I were to agree with you (which I don’t) it was Christians, based on their religious beliefs, who argued for emancipation. > [@](#): > > Luckily for us our founding fathers were really smart and established a government that was was not religious based and actually forbade arbitrary laws that were meant to force others to follow a particular religion. But also recognized that a nation must be accountable to a Creator. So your appeal doesn’t do much for your argument. > [@](#): > > Those who support DOMA are the ones “destroying the constitution” I’ll give you points for creativity. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/122 "2012-03-28T04:21:35Z")
I think it’s worth noting that a secular idea can also be bigoted, incomplete, misguided, or stupid. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/123 "2012-03-28T04:24:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Did I say that? Do explain, how you got this from my statement? I am curious. Show me your train of thought. Try reading the part you edited out. You seem utterly focused on ignoring adopted children. As if they don’t deserve stable families, and gay couples couldn’t be a source of them. Why? You have tunnel vision only on hetro-families. Why? What does gay marriage do to them? I think you sympathies with the bigots, probably you are one yourself. Otherwise why the interest in promoting bigotry under such a stupid and transparent guise? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/124 "2012-03-28T04:26:38Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > I’m not sure how maintaining something that has been understood for thousands of years is pushing anything. It is the anti-domas who are pushing their agenda on others. The shoe fits on both feet at least. True or false, you’re attempting to force a religious idea down everyone elses throat? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/125 "2012-03-28T04:28:36Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > True or false, you’re attempting to force a religious idea down everyone elses throat? False. Next? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/126 "2012-03-28T04:28:37Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > I’m not sure how maintaining something that has been understood for thousands of years is pushing anything. It is the anti-domas who are pushing their agenda on others. The shoe fits on both feet at least. Appeal to tradition on the first part, on the second part how is allowing adults to marry pushing anything on you? > [@](#): > > Even if I were to agree with you (which I don’t) it was Christians, based on their religious beliefs, who argued for emancipation. Some Christians did, the man who passed it was not a Christian > [@](#): > > But also recognized that a nation must be accountable to a Creator. So your appeal doesn’t do much for your argument. > > I’ll give you points for creativity. So you do want a theocracy!! ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/127 "2012-03-28T04:29:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I think you sympathies with the bigots, probably you are one yourself. Otherwise why the interest in promoting bigotry under such a stupid and transparent guise? Of course. Anyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or evil. Or both. How terribly enlightened of you. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/128 "2012-03-28T04:30:42Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > False. Next? [QUOTE=hoopified] But also recognized that a nation must be accountable to a Creator. So your appeal doesn’t do much for your argument. [/QUOTE] What? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/129 "2012-03-28T04:30:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Appeal to tradition on the first part, on the second part how is allowing adults to marry pushing anything on you? > > Some Christians did, the man who passed it was not a Christian > > So you do want a theocracy!! What a silly question. What does this have to do with the question at hand? Or any question at all, for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/130 "2012-03-28T04:31:45Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Of course. Anyone who disagrees with you is either stupid or evil. Or both. How terribly enlightened of you. Again, how does allowing gays to marry directly effect you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/131 "2012-03-28T04:32:16Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Try reading the part you edited out. You seem utterly focused on ignoring adopted children. As if they don’t deserve stable families, and gay couples couldn’t be a source of them. Why? Just because you think something may be beneficial does not mean it is the State is required to encourage and promote it. Here is a statement: “It is better for children to bring them up within the marriage that produced them than outside of it or without it.” That, I think, is the “secular purpose” of the state promoting and encouraging heterosexual marriage. There may be reasons to encourage and promote homosexual marriage but they are _different_ reasons because the above one doesn’t apply. Convince the State that that’s so, gather enough votes and boom! you get your promotion and encouragement of homosexual marriage. Like you just did in Maryland, for example. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/132 "2012-03-28T04:32:51Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > False. Next? So you’re not making a religious argument for DOMA? Because I just shredded your “secular” one. It’s pretty stupid. You have not demonstrated a gay couple is worse than a hetro couple. Further as I’ve already demonstrated if gay and hetero couples are equal at child raising then adoption shows they can have kids as well. Basically you have no argument. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/133 "2012-03-28T04:33:47Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > What a silly question. What does this have to do with the question at hand? Or any question at all, for that matter? You were claiming credit where it was not due, your belief that this country was founded as a “christian” country and has to follow late bronze age fan fiction is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/134 "2012-03-28T04:35:35Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You were claiming credit where it was not due, your belief that this country was founded as a “christian” country and has to follow late bronze age fan fiction is invalid. cfr ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/135 "2012-03-28T04:38:49Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So you’re not making a religious argument for DOMA? > > Because I just shredded your “secular” one. It’s pretty stupid. You have not demonstrated a gay couple is worse than a hetro couple. Further as I’ve already demonstrated if gay and hetero couples are equal at child raising then adoption shows they can have kids as well. > > Basically you have no argument. My contention is not that gay couples are “worse”. Please try to address what I actually write, not what your bigotry wants me to write. My contention is that the state has determined that marriage between a man and a woman is the best possible construct to raise children. Therefor, that construct deserves preference. That is a secular argument - the argument that was asked of me from the beginning. At no time did I say it’s true, I just provided the secular argument. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/136 "2012-03-28T04:39:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Just because you think something may be beneficial does not mean it is the State is required to encourage and promote it. > > Here is a statement: “It is better for children to bring them up within the marriage that produced them than outside of it or without it.” > > That, I think, is the “secular purpose” of the state promoting and encouraging heterosexual marriage. > > There may be reasons to encourage and promote homosexual marriage but they are _different_ reasons because the above one doesn’t apply. Convince the State that that’s so, gather enough votes and boom! you get your promotion and encouragement of homosexual marriage. Like you just did in Maryland, for example. I will make this bold, and plain. **How does a gay marriage discourage a hetro couple from having kids? How does bigotry against gays promote hetros?** You claim outlawing outlawing gay marriage promotes hetro, but you have not demonstrated how. I on the other hand have demonstrated a clear group with an urgent need for stable homes that gay marriage could provide. I guess the state must cock suck the bigots instead of give kids stable homes, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/137 "2012-03-28T04:41:39Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Obviously marriage has its roots in religion. No, it isn’t “obvious”. Humans instinctively pair bond, something that’s a lot older than religion. > [@hoopified](#): > > The state has recognized that marriage between a man and a woman is the best possible construction to provide for the best possible environment for children. No, that’s a falsehood created by the anti-homosexual bigots to excuse the passage of such laws. It isn’t true, and it’s irrelevant anyway since very few people live in some kind of ideal home. If that’s the standard for marriage, then almost no one should be allowed marriage. Convicted serial killers can get married, but not homosexuals. Am I supposed to believe that serial killers make better parents? > [@hoopified](#): > > Whether a particular marriage produces children is also irrelevant. Whether a particular marriage can still produce children is irrelevant. Nonsense. The fact that no one cares about that demonstrates that the claim that marriage law is about children is false. > [@hoopified](#): > > Whether or not it’s true is also irrelevant, this is the state’s motivation. That’s nonsense; if it isn’t true, then it by definition isn’t the motivation; it’s a lie to cover the actual motivation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/138 "2012-03-28T04:43:28Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > **My contention is not that gay couples are “worse”**. Please try to address what I actually write, not what your bigotry wants me to write. My contention is that the state has determined that **marriage between a man and a woman is the best possible construct to raise children**. Therefor, that construct deserves preference. That is a secular argument - the argument that was asked of me from the beginning. At no time did I say it’s true, I just provided the secular argument. If gay couples are not worse than “man and a woman is the best possible construct to raise children” is god damn false. So either the state is pulling that out of its ass, or it’s rationalizing bigotry. If the state claimed “marriage between two people of the same race is the best way to raise children” would that make outlawing interracial marriage okay? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/139 "2012-03-28T04:44:39Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I will make this bold, and plain. **How does a gay marriage discourage a hetro couple from having kids? How does bigotry against gays promote hetros?** It doesn’t and it doesn’t. > [@](#): > > You claim outlawing outlawing gay marriage promotes hetro, but you have not demonstrated how. I on the other hand have demonstrated a clear group with an urgent need for stable homes that gay marriage could provide. I don’t think the state is required to encourage and promote something that it does not find itself sufficiently interested in promoting or encouraging. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/140 "2012-03-28T04:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > No, it isn’t “obvious”. Humans instinctively pair bond, something that’s a lot older than religion. Your contention is demonstrably false. There is nothing older than religion. > [@](#): > > No, that’s a falsehood created by the anti-homosexual bigots to excuse the passage of such laws. It isn’t true, and it’s irrelevant anyway since very few people live in some kind of ideal home. If that’s the standard for marriage, then almost no one should be allowed marriage. What does that have to do with anything? So your position is that since, as you say, very few people live in “some kind of ideal home” that the state should not strive to provide the best possible environment for that home? That’s ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Convicted serial killers can get married, but not homosexuals. Am I supposed to believe that serial killers make better parents? Certainly. Because, presumably, serial killers fall within the state recognized parameters of marriage. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. The fact that no one cares about that demonstrates that the claim that marriage law is about children is false. No one cares? I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t care. Can you? > [@](#): > > That’s nonsense; if it isn’t true, then it by definition isn’t the motivation; it’s a lie to cover the actual motivation. One would have to know that it isn’t true, which would be tough to prove. I would content that most people recognize that a child deserves to have a mother and a father when possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=8)