# What is the secular purpose of DOMA **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983 "2012-03-27T21:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/141 "2012-03-28T04:52:33Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > cfr Our Founding Fathers were aneclectic collection of Atheists, Deists, Christians, Freemasons and Agnostics. George Washington and John Adams in the Treaty with Tripoli > [@](#): > > The Government of theUnited States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion. George Washington was into Deism that have nothing to do with Christian principles. James Madison > [@](#): > > "What have been[Christianity’s] fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in theClergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry andpersecution.” Thomas Jefferson, > [@](#): > > “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…willbe classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” > [@](#): > > "Thewhole history of these books is so defective and doubtful – evidence that partshave proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabricof very inferior minds.” Do you want me to keep going, your view is miss-informed, mine is not wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/142 "2012-03-28T04:55:33Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Your contention is demonstrably false. There is nothing older than religion. > > One would have to know that it isn’t true, which would be tough to prove. I would content that most people recognize that a child deserves to have a mother and a father when possible. So of the tens of thousands of abandoned mythologies should we believe, why should yours be allowed to force their beliefs on the dozens that still exist? And there are many things much older than man, the age of religion is unknown. But I promise if you look outside you will see one at least. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/143 "2012-03-28T04:56:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Our Founding Fathers were aneclectic collection of Atheists, Deists, Christians, Freemasons and Agnostics. > > George Washington and John Adams in the Treaty with Tripoli > > George Washington was into Deism that have nothing to do with Christian principles. > > James Madison > Thomas Jefferson, > > Do you want me to keep going, your view is miss-informed, mine is not wishful thinking. CFR means you have to show me that I claimed that the constitutuion/country was founded as a “Christian” nation. As you claimed. I wrote creator, I did not write “Christian”. There were many FF’s who were Christian, Deists, Agnostics, etc. We both know all the quotes. Your anti religious bigotry is showing. Funny how your form of bigotry is acceptable but mine, as you allege, is not. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/144 "2012-03-28T04:59:30Z")
> [@](#): > > So of the tens of thousands of abandoned mythologies should we believe, why should yours be allowed to force their beliefs on the dozens that still exist? That wasn’t the question. The question was “what secular interest does the state have for doma?” I’ve shown one. A compelling one. And, no one is forcing anything. doma simply recognizes the status quo. > [@](#): > > And there are many things much older than man, the age of religion is unknown. There may be many “things” older than man, but as long as there has been Man, there has been religion of some kind. So you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/145 "2012-03-28T04:59:52Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > CFR means you have to show me that I claimed that the constitutuion/country was founded as a “Christian” nation. As you claimed. I wrote creator, I did not write “Christian”. There were many FF’s who were Christian, Deists, Agnostics, etc. > > We both know all the quotes. > > Your anti religious bigotry is showing. Funny how your form of bigotry is acceptable but mine, as you allege, is not. Am I passing laws that force my beliefs on others? This is not even creative. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/146 "2012-03-28T04:59:58Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > Your contention is demonstrably false. There is nothing older than religion. Say what? “Demonstrate” it then. Someone at some point had to make up religion, so it by nature is going to be younger than all sorts of things that originated even before humans even were really human. > [@hoopified](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? So your position is that since, as you say, very few people live in “some kind of ideal home” that the state should not strive to provide the best possible environment for that home? That’s ridiculous. No; what’s ridiculous is forbidding gays from marrying to “provide an ideal home” for children when marriage has nothing to do with that, and when homosexuals don’t provide a worse home tom begin with. > [@hoopified](#): > > Certainly. Because, presumably, serial killers fall within the state recognized parameters of marriage. So you are actually going to argue in favor of the idea that serial killers make better parents than homosexuals? :rolleyes: Every time this discussion comes up, sooner or later (usually sooner) the anti-same sex marriage crowd demonstrates just how much their position is built on nothing but the irrational hatred of homosexuals. > [@hoopified](#): > > No one cares? I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t care. Can you? You. You just called it irrelevant. > [@hoopified](#): > > One would have to know that it isn’t true, which would be tough to prove. No tougher than showing that any other marriage is good or bad for children. And there’s no evidence that SSM is worse for children. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/147 "2012-03-28T05:00:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Am I passing laws that force my beliefs on others?. If you support gay marriage, you certainly are. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/148 "2012-03-28T05:01:22Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > That wasn’t the question. The question was “what secular interest does the state have for doma?” I’ve shown one. A compelling one. And, no one is forcing anything. doma simply recognizes the status quo. > There may be many “things” older than man, but as long as there has been Man, there has been religion of some kind. So you are wrong. Wait…oh the gays can’t have kids one? Ya, you never provided any evidence there was a state interest in that outside of your religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/149 "2012-03-28T05:02:27Z")
Can someone explain to me how gay marriage decreases, or even affects, the birth rate? The connection escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/150 "2012-03-28T05:03:01Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > If you support gay marriage, you certainly are. You keep saying this buy you don’t provide any evidence on how letting others marry effects you at all. Will your church blow up? Will your god destroy our cities while he allows you to go have drunk sex in a cave with your daughters? In what way does another couples marriage effect you at all. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/151 "2012-03-28T05:04:52Z")
[quote=“Der\_Trihs, post:146, topic:616983”] > [@](#): > > Say what? “Demonstrate” it then. > > Someone at some point had to make up religion, so it by nature is going to be younger than all sorts of things that originated even before humans even were really human. Please provide evidence for this assertion. My evidence is that as far as we can determine, religion is coincidental with man. > [@](#): > > No; what’s ridiculous is forbidding gays from marrying to “provide an ideal home” for children when marriage has nothing to do with that, and when homosexuals don’t provide a worse home tom begin with. I don’t know what to write to that. If that’s what you want to bolster your assertion wtih, then I guess have at it. > [@](#): > > So you are actually going to argue in favor of the idea that serial killers make better parents than homosexuals? :rolleyes: Where did I write that? > [@](#): > > Every time this discussion comes up, sooner or later (usually sooner) the anti-same sex marriage crowd demonstrates just how much their position is built on nothing but the irrational hatred of homosexuals. And, inevitably, a difference of opinion is quantified as hate. > [@](#): > > You. You just called it irrelevant. to this discussion of the state’s interest in supporting traditional marriage. Words have meaning, and with that meaning, one must decipher context. > [@](#): > > No tougher than showing that any other marriage is good or bad for children. And there’s no evidence that SSM is worse for children. then please provide evidence for your assertion. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/152 "2012-03-28T05:05:09Z")
**hoopified** , you stated gay couples are not worse. So if they’re equal as parents why wouldn’t an “idealized home” include them? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/153 "2012-03-28T05:05:46Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > [QUOTE=] > Am I passing laws that force my beliefs on others? If you support gay marriage, you certainly are. [/QUOTE] Letting _other_ people do what they want isn’t them forcing their beliefs on you. You’ve just done the Christian thing of trying to define freedom as “absolute submission to my personal religious dogma by all of humanity”. Everyone who doesn’t submit to your every whim is “oppressing you”. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/154 "2012-03-28T05:07:20Z")
[quote=“rat\_avatar, post:150, topic:616983”] > [@](#): > > You keep saying this buy you don’t provide any evidence on how letting others marry effects you at all. Didn’t say it did. That doesn’t change the fact that you are forcing your beliefs on others. > [@](#): > > In what way does another couples marriage effect you at all. It doesn’t. I thought we were talking about the state? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/155 "2012-03-28T05:07:45Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > If you support gay marriage, you certainly are. Explain. How does a gay marriage affect your life at all? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/156 "2012-03-28T05:08:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > **hoopified** , you stated gay couples are not worse. So if they’re equal as parents why wouldn’t an “idealized home” include them? Because they don’t include both sexes. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/157 "2012-03-28T05:09:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s nonsense; if it isn’t true, then it by definition isn’t the motivation; it’s a lie to cover the actual motivation. Well, it could be false and still be the motivation as long as Congress _thought_ it was true, and regrettably I don’t doubt that many Congressmen genuinely believe a number of truly vile things. All that said, hoopified seems deeply confused regarding basic issues of history, law generally, and DOMA specifically. He’s also simply wrong as a matter of fact. As the Justice Department determined by combing through what I imagine must have been a nauseating legislative history, DOMA was in fact motivated by bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/158 "2012-03-28T05:09:28Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Explain. How does a gay marriage affect your life at all? It probably doesn’t. That’s not the point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/159 "2012-03-28T05:09:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can someone explain to me how gay marriage decreases, or even affects, the birth rate? The connection escapes me. Just lest this minor detail slipped by unattended… ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983/160 "2012-03-28T05:09:54Z")
[quote=“hoopified, post:154, topic:616983”] > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Didn’t say it did. That doesn’t change the fact that you are forcing your beliefs on others. > > It doesn’t. I thought we were talking about the state? So allowing gays to marry is forcing beliefs on the state, the state that is suppose to protect the rights of those to answer to their own (non)gods? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-secular-purpose-of-doma/616983.md?page=9)