# What is the significance of Alice & the Restaurant (in the song) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 26, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277 "2016-01-26T17:43:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/21 "2016-01-27T19:47:49Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not a drug reference. Alice was an early resident of the town of Eureka. She actually opened Cafe Diem and her son Vincent took over running it by the time the series aired. Are you sure you’re talking about the same Alice we are? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/22 "2016-01-27T19:53:36Z")
It was the Pickle that was significant, and that was an entirely different song. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/23 "2016-01-27T20:02:20Z")
I _knew_ it wasn’t an ordinary pickle. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/24 "2016-01-27T20:09:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Are you sure you’re talking about the same Alice we are? Remember at Cafe Diem you could get anything you want. I was making the logical connection. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/25 "2016-01-27T20:13:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It was the Pickle that was significant, and that was an entirely different song. I don’t want one, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/26 "2016-01-27T20:39:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > overly restrictive and illogical rules-oriented establishment being mocked in describing both the over-the-top response to the littering and the draft process approach to prior “criminal” history. While I see the absurdity of the latter, I respectfully disagree on the former. Assuming the description in the [Wiki entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Restaurant) is correct, Guthrie’s offense may have been titled littering but it wasn’t chucking a bottle from a car (in those days before PSAs with weeping faux-Indians :)) but fly-dumping. He dumped a “large stockpile of trash \*\*\* over a cliff on Nelson Foote, Sr.'s property on Prospect Street.” While the police chief spending two hours searching for evidence (presumably something with a name on it) and taking 27 photos sounds like overkill, ordinance violations like fly-dumping aren’t jokes, and a $50 fine plus community service (cleaning up the garbage) sounds far from over-the-top when (for instance, and keeping in mind inflation since 1965) the minimum fine for fly-dumping in Chicago nowadays is $1500. [Cite.](http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/streets/provdrs/street/svcs/illegal_fly_dumping.html) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/27 "2016-01-27T21:09:22Z")
> [@John\_Bredin](#): > > While I see the absurdity of the latter, I respectfully disagree on the former. Assuming the description in the [Wiki entry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice%27s_Restaurant) is correct, Guthrie’s offense may have been titled littering but it wasn’t chucking a bottle from a car (in those days before PSAs with weeping faux-Indians :)) but fly-dumping. He dumped a “large stockpile of trash \*\*\* over a cliff on Nelson Foote, Sr.'s property on Prospect Street.” While the police chief spending two hours searching for evidence (presumably something with a name on it) and taking 27 photos sounds like overkill, ordinance violations like fly-dumping aren’t jokes, and a $50 fine plus community service (cleaning up the garbage) sounds far from over-the-top when (for instance, and keeping in mind inflation since 1965) the minimum fine for fly-dumping in Chicago nowadays is $1500. [Cite.](http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/streets/provdrs/street/svcs/illegal_fly_dumping.html) The song focuses on the over-the-top response of “Officer Obie” and his fellow policemen, which allegedly included handcuffing him, locking him in a cell with the toilet seat removed to prevent suicide and so on. Officer Obie apparently disputed some of these details, and Guthrie himself admitted that he exagerated somewhat, but at any rate that’s the point of that part of the story. The song itself presents the penalty at the trial as being relatively minor. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/28 "2016-01-27T22:04:38Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Since I know it will come up, here’s what Arlo had to say about the word, “faggots”, in a recentish interview - I saw Arlo in Omaha last April. He’s since changed the lyric to “If two people do it, they’ll think they’re two guys in Texas who love each other trying to get married. Or three in Utah.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/29 "2016-01-27T22:53:24Z")
Yep, getting bawled out and having to clean up the garbage…in the snow…was pretty much what they expected, and it was pretty much what they got, much to Officer Obie’s disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/30 "2016-01-28T07:56:47Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yep, getting bawled out and having to clean up the garbage…in the snow…was pretty much what they expected, and it was pretty much what they got, much to Officer Obie’s disappointment. If you’ll recall the conversation at the Group W bench: 1. He was fined 50 dollars and had to pick up the garbage in the snow. B. He was convicted of Littering and Creating a Public Nuisance. But there was an injustice there, I believe. Remember, they dumped the trash there because there was already a big pile of trash there already, and they thought one big pile was better than two little piles. Well, I bet they had to pick up ALL of the trash, not just the trash they dumped. I don’t think Officer Obie was all that disappointed at the sentence; what more could he reasonably expect? I think he was mostly disappointed with the trial. As Arlo described it: > [@](#): > > Man came in, said, “All rise!” We all stood up, and Obie stood up with the > twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures, and the judge walked in, sat > down, with a seein’ eye dog and he sat down. We sat down. > > Obie looked at the seein’ eye dog . . . then at the twenty-seven 8 x 10 > colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the > back of each one . . . and looked at the seein’ eye dog . . . and then at > the twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored glossy pictures with the circles and arrows > and a paragraph on the back of each on and began to cry. > > Because Obie came to the realization that it was a typical case of American > blind justice, and there wasn’t nothin’ he could do about it, and the judge > wasn’t gonna look at the twenty-seven 8 by 10 colored glossy pictures with > the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin’ > what each one was, to be used as evidence against us. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/31 "2016-01-28T08:23:18Z")
My recollection of the movie is that Alice does have a more fleshed out role. If memory serves (and it may not - it’s been a long time), there is a poignant scene where she is talking to Arlo and says she is like a dog whose teats have been sucked dry; she’s just exhausted from being the one to give and give and give. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/32 "2016-01-28T13:52:16Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > My recollection of the movie is that Alice does have a more fleshed out role. If memory serves (and it may not - it’s been a long time), there is a poignant scene where she is talking to Arlo and says she is like a dog whose teats have been sucked dry; she’s just exhausted from being the one to give and give and give. You watched the movie?!? Poor dear, have you recovered yet? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/33 "2016-01-28T14:41:51Z")
The song is so fun and the movie is such a drag and a downer (partly because of a scene showing Woody Guthrie in the hospital). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/34 "2016-01-28T14:48:33Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It’s a song about trying to do good and getting it all wrong. Note this parallel, too. Let’s face it, Arlo and his friend were sort of chuckleheads in the opening portion of the song. They’re trying to do right by Alice in taking out the garbage but when confronted with adversity - the dump’s closed for Thanksgiving - they begin to improvise in that magical way that young men will and end up making a situation prone to escalation. It actually ties in pretty well with Kennedy/Johnson and Vietnam. Go in expecting something fairly simple and eventually it spirals all out of control until it even gets Johnson to decide not to run for re-elections. Young hippy, old politician. Just chuckleheads of different stripes. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/35 "2016-01-28T16:35:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > After looking through [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlo_Guthrie#.22Alice.27s_Restaurant.22), I suspect the answer has to do with this:I’m guessing that the earlier versions of the song focused more heavily on Alice and the restaurant. And that the restaurant was depicted as a free and easy anything-goes place (where “you can do anything you want”), and thus the antithesis of the overly restrictive and illogical rules-oriented establishment being mocked in describing both the over-the-top response to the littering and the draft process approach to prior “criminal” history. Good heavens, you mean there is a longer version of the song? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/36 "2016-01-28T17:51:31Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > If you’ll recall the conversation at the Group W bench: > > 1. He was fined 50 dollars and had to pick up the garbage in the snow. > B. He was convicted of Littering and Creating a Public Nuisance. > > But there was an injustice there, I believe. Remember, they dumped the trash there because there was already a big pile of trash there already, and they thought one big pile was better than two little piles. Well, I bet they had to pick up ALL of the trash, not just the trash they dumped. > > I don’t think Officer Obie was all that disappointed at the sentence; what more could he reasonably expect? I think he was mostly disappointed with the trial. As Arlo described it: The song says they ended up dumping a thousand pounds of garbage. Which is alot more serious than littering. The obvious defense against being accused of dumping garbage on someone’s property is that it was someone else and you can’t prove the garbage was mine. So then the to combat that, the police would need to gather evidence that the garbage belonged to the accused. Thus it would not be overkill to have a bunch of photographs of the garbage that tied the defendants to the garbage. It ended up being overkill since the defendants did not deny their guilt, but there would be no way of knowing that before the trial. It is interesting to show how much the environmental movement has affected our thoughts in that Guthrie tells the story of a business dumping a thousand pounds of garbage somewhere their not supposed to and he just assumes that it was no big deal and everyone who listens to the song will agree with him. I doubt people would have the same reaction to day. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/37 "2016-01-28T18:00:22Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is interesting to show how much the environmental movement has affected our thoughts in that Guthrie tells the story of a business dumping a thousand pounds of garbage somewhere their not supposed to and he just assumes that it was no big deal and everyone who listens to the song will agree with him. I doubt people would have the same reaction to day. I think people today would think of him as more thoughtless today, but still understand that the resulting actions by the justice system were still out of proportion to the misdemeanor. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/38 "2016-01-28T18:02:36Z")
But remember when he admits to the father-rapers on the Group W bench that his special crime was littering? They all moved away from him. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/39 "2016-01-28T18:11:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The obvious defense against being accused of dumping garbage on someone’s property is that it was someone else and you can’t prove the garbage was mine. So then the to combat that, the police would need to gather evidence that the garbage belonged to the accused. Thus it would not be overkill to have a bunch of photographs of the garbage that tied the defendants to the garbage. It ended up being overkill since the defendants did not deny their guilt, but there would be no way of knowing that before the trial. I don’t know, the garbage wasn’t his, it belonged to Alice and Ray. One odd aspect of the story is that Officer Obie managed to identify it as Arlo’s based on his name on one envelope at the bottom, but presumably most of the garbage - to the extent that it could be tied to anyone - would have tied to Alice & Ray. > [@](#): > > It is interesting to show how much the environmental movement has affected our thoughts in that Guthrie tells the story of a business dumping a thousand pounds of garbage somewhere their not supposed to … FWIW, it doesn’t seem to have been the trash of the business (restaurant) - he says it was from the household (which they had not taken out “for a long time”). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277/40 "2016-01-28T18:33:41Z")
Well, until he said “And creating a public nuisance” and they all came back, shook his hand… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-significance-of-alice-the-restaurant-in-the-song/744277.md?page=3)