# What is the word clerics use to discount reason?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 29, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407 "2016-11-29T20:51:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/1 "2016-11-29T20:51:36Z")
There’s a word that’s commonly used by religious people that basically means religion (or God) is not subject to logical scrutiny.
You point out a logical problem, for instance, and they say, “That’s just X” - which basically means reason can’t be used to understand God.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/2 "2016-11-29T20:54:21Z")
Is [mystery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_mysteries#Christian_mysteries) perhaps the word you’re thinking of?
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### Author:  [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/3 "2016-11-29T20:54:22Z")
Stephen Gould used to refer to non-overlapping magisteria when discussion the division of the world into scientific and religious spheres.
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### Author:  [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/4 "2016-11-29T20:55:33Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#):
>
> There’s a word that’s commonly used by religious people that basically means religion (or God) is not subject to logical scrutiny.
>
> You point out a logical problem, for instance, and they say, “That’s just X” - which basically means reason can’t be used to understand God.
“ineffable”?
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/5 "2016-11-29T20:55:55Z")
[Dogma:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma)
> [@Wikipedia](#):
>
> More generally it is applied to some strong belief that the ones adhering to it are not willing to rationally discuss. This attitude is called dogmatic or dogmatism and is often the case in religiously related matters.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/6 "2016-11-29T20:57:52Z")
“Mysterious ways”?
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/7 "2016-11-29T21:02:03Z")
Transcendent – beyond our understanding (by its nature).
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### Author:  [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/8 "2016-11-29T21:27:07Z")
Thanks for the replies, but this term is used exclusively to mean this one idea only. It’s never used outside of religion. It’s a one word dismissal that means man’s ability to reason can’t possibly understand God, so it’s dumb to even try. It’s basically a one word statement that faith matters and reason doesn’t and to believe otherwise is just stupid.
The nuns used it to shut us up when we questioned bible stories.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/9 "2016-11-29T21:43:35Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#):
>
> Thanks for the replies, but this term is used exclusively to mean this one idea only. It’s never used outside of religion. It’s a one word dismissal that means man’s ability to reason can’t possibly understand God, so it’s dumb to even try. It’s basically a one word statement that faith matters and reason doesn’t and to believe otherwise is just stupid.
>
> The nuns used it to shut us up when we questioned bible stories.
Some variant of [Fideism?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism)
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [November 29, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/10 "2016-11-29T23:34:51Z")
Inscrutable.
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### Author:  [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/11 "2016-11-30T00:21:49Z")
I’d go with ineffable myself, it’s the religious equivalent of “shut up it’s magic”. Inscrutable works too.
ETA : frickin’ ninjas everywhere these days 🙂
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/12 "2016-11-30T00:40:44Z")
“Incomprehensible” rings a bell.
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### Author:  [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/13 "2016-11-30T00:51:09Z")
The word is used as a put-down - definitely along the lines of “shut up it’s beyond human understanding.”
But like I said, it’s not a “normal” word in that it’s only used for this one particular meaning and never outside the context of religion.
I can almost grasp it, but it’s just out of my reach. Frustrating. It will probably come to me out of the blue when I’m thinking of something else.
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### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/14 "2016-11-30T00:54:16Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#):
>
> I can almost grasp it, but it’s just out of my reach.
Wow, if only there were a word for that.
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/15 "2016-11-30T01:07:34Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#):
>
> “ineffable”?
Does _ineffable_ mean you can’t f\*\*\* it?
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/16 "2016-11-30T01:10:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#):
>
> I’d go with ineffable myself, it’s the religious equivalent of “shut up it’s magic”. Inscrutable works too.
I’ve heard both words used in reference to God’s mysterious ways. I’d say they have slightly different meanings.
_Ineffable_ means too great, too wonderful to express in words, usually with a positive connotation; _inscrutable_ means mysterious, beyond comprehension.
The wonder of God’s creation is ineffable.
A child dying of leukemia is part of God’s inscrutable plan.
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### Author:  [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/17 "2016-11-30T01:50:29Z")
[Suprarational](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suprarational)?
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### Author:  [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/18 "2016-11-30T03:01:32Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> Some variant of [Fideism?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fideism)
This is what I was thinking, but I’m not sure how common fideism is today. It’s more of a philosophy and history of apologetics (apologistics?) term nowadays. Also, AFAIK nobody has ever really identified as a fideist, it was more of a critical term levied at someone by their opponents.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/19 "2016-11-30T03:47:57Z")
> [@Jragon](#):
>
> Also, AFAIK nobody has ever really identified as a fideist, it was more of a critical term levied at someone by their opponents.
Martin Gardner [described himself as a fideist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Gardner#Theism_and_religion). His attitude was pretty unusual though.
> [@](#):
>
> Gardner believed in a personal God, in an afterlife, and in prayer, but rejected established religion. He considered himself a philosophical theist and a fideist.
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### Author:  [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)
#### Post date: [November 30, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-the-word-clerics-use-to-discount-reason/773407/20 "2016-11-30T05:15:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Martin Gardner [described himself as a fideist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Gardner#Theism_and_religion). His attitude was pretty unusual though.
That’s interesting, I did not know that about Gardner.
What he describes sounds congruent with a belief that our universe is plausibly a simulation created by aliens so far beyond our comprehension that it’s pointless seeking evidence for them, or trying to guess at their nature or motivations. In a sense, this does open up the possibility for something transcendent, something entirely unforeseen.
But it would never have occurred to me to call this fideism. The fideism that I’m more familiar with seems to be wishful thinking directed toward notions that are strongly _contradicted_ by rational inquiry, not fantastic and speculative things that may simply be _inaccessible_ to rational inquiry.
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