# What is this chord progression? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 19, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688 "2009-09-19T03:07:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/21 "2009-09-19T04:27:36Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > No, I just meant that, as a listener, “Walking On Sunshine”, “Louie, Louie” and “Wild Thing” sound different enough (to me) that I wouldn’t know (not being a guitarist/keyboardist/whatever) they were based on the same chord progression, And that’s one of the wonderful things about music: the same basic principles can be used and re-used and re-hashed over and over and over with variations in rhythm, voicing, key, etc., and make new things that are similar but different every time. That’s why The Ramones were great, why The Stooges rocked, why punk rock survived at all. [Here’s one of the best pieces of advice I ever saw.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/now%20form%20a%20band.GIF) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/22 "2009-09-19T04:31:20Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, no, you quite got the chords right, just the wrong sequence. I-flat III- IV is the same as I-V-flat VII, depdning on where you feel the tonic (I chord) is. So, C-E flat-F is I-flat III-IV in the key of C, but V-flat VII-I in the key of F. It all depends on where you feel that “finality” (tonic), for lack of better description. Ok, yeah, that fits with what I remember. F (tonic), yada yada yada. > [@](#): > > Hmm…I don’t know. “Groove is in the Heart” is basically I-V over and over. Different era, but “Na Na Na Hey Hey Hey (Kiss Him Goodbye)” is I-flat III- IV. > > edit: Crap, no, it’s I-flat III-flat VII (I’m not that good at playing progressions in my head. The piano set me straight.) This is going to bug me now. What the hell songs fit that progression? hehe let the earworms begin! ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/23 "2009-09-19T09:34:58Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > No, I just meant that, as a listener, “Walking On Sunshine”, “Louie, Louie” and “Wild Thing” sound different enough (to me) that I wouldn’t know (not being a guitarist/keyboardist/whatever) they were based on the same chord progression My tip for picking out a chord progression would be to imagine you are the bass player. Try to hear the bass notes that you would play alongside the tune. Chances are, they will be the root notes of the chords. That won’t tell you by itself whether they are major, minor, 7ths, diminished or whatever, but it’s a start. In “Walking on Sunshine”, btw, it’s the verse that is I-IV-V-IV. The chorus is just V-IV-V-IV. Anyway, I too am intrigued by this idea of “lousy white people’s chord progression”, but we seem to have several different suggestions for what it might be. Is there a definitive answer? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/24 "2009-09-19T09:57:10Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > My tip for picking out a chord progression would be to imagine you are the bass player. Try to hear the bass notes that you would play alongside the tune. Chances are, they will be the root notes of the chords. That won’t tell you by itself whether they are major, minor, 7ths, diminished or whatever, but it’s a start. In “Walking on Sunshine”, btw, it’s the verse that is I-IV-V-IV. The chorus is just V-IV-V-IV. > > Anyway, I too am intrigued by this idea of “lousy white people’s chord progression”, but we seem to have several different suggestions for what it might be. Is there a definitive answer? See post #5. It’s just a pet peeve that Mr. Zappa had. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/25 "2009-09-19T10:24:24Z")
Yeah, but **pulykamell** wondered whether it were II-V-I or ii-V-I. Although I can’t hear either in “Got to Get You Into My Life” or “Layla”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/26 "2009-09-19T10:56:56Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > Yeah, but **pulykamell** wondered whether it were II-V-I or ii-V-I. Although I can’t hear either in “Got to Get You Into My Life” or “Layla”. Here: I’ll give you all 3 paragraphs on it, from page 187 of **The Real Frank Zappa Book** , 1st Edition: > [@](#): > > Many compositions that have been accepted as "GREAT ART through the years reek of these _hateful practices_. For example, the rule of harmony that says: _The second degree of the scale should go to the fifth degree of the scale, which should go to the first degree of the scale_ **[II-V-I]**. > > Tin Pan Alley songs and jazz standards thrive on **II-V-I**. To me, this is a _hateful progression_. In jazz, they beef it up a little by adding extra partials into the chords, to make them more luxurious, but it’s still **II-V-I**. To me, **II-V-I** is the essence of bad ‘_white-person music_’. > > (One of the most exciting things that ever happened in the world of '_white-person music_ was when the Beach Boys used the progression **V-II** on “Little Deuce Coupe.” An important step forward by going backward.) If you want further clarification, you’re going to have to ask Mr. Zappa, which will be difficult to do nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/27 "2009-09-19T11:25:05Z")
[The Axis of Awesome](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP0--qwCuek) amusingly make the whole thing sensible. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/28 "2009-09-19T12:13:07Z")
What’s “I-flat” mean in the context of a chord progression? -Kris ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/29 "2009-09-19T12:32:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What’s “I-flat” mean in the context of a chord progression? You mean as in “this would actually be i-III-IV or I-flat III-IV”? That confused me for a moment. But the “flat” goes with the III, not the I. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/30 "2009-09-19T12:37:28Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > You mean as in “this would actually be i-III-IV or I-flat III-IV”? That confused me for a moment. But the “flat” goes with the III, not the I. Ah, that straightens that out. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/31 "2009-09-19T12:47:20Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > [The Axis of Awesome](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP0--qwCuek) amusingly make the whole thing sensible. That is great. There’s a link there to another guy who’s pitch- and tempo-matched no less than 65 I-V-vi-IV songs! That must have been a marathon Audacity session. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OdVurJFMDUI/hqdefault.jpg "4 Chords, 65 Songs") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdVurJFMDUI) ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/32 "2009-09-19T12:57:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I - IV - V > > This is the most common progression in rock/pop/blues music. > > Start with the first chord, count 4 whole steps to the next, then 5 whole steps from the 1st chord for the last. > > So, if your root (first) chord is A, the 4th is D and the 5th is E. > > ETA: variations on this prolly make up like 60% of pop/rock music. Another 30% are the hated I - III - IV progression, characterized by Frank Zappa as “bad white people music”. Sorry to nitpick, Bo, but the distance from the I to the IV is 2 and a half steps, from the I to the V is 3 and a half steps. The numbers denote the position in the scale, not the number of steps from the I. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/33 "2009-09-19T12:57:42Z")
Nothing to add; just appreciating the ride. It’s also fun to watch \*\*puly \*\*get into a theory knot 😉 I am such a mouth-breather when it comes to theory. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/34 "2009-09-19T14:10:27Z")
Another fun one: [The Pachelbel Rant.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM&feature=related) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/35 "2009-09-19T18:17:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Ah, that straightens that out. 😉 Sorry, yes. I didn’t know how best to notate it, but that flat goes with the III. And, yes, Frank was talking about the ii-V-I. Its expanded cousin is the vi-ii-V-I. (Sometimes known as the “50s progression,” along with its variant vi-IV-V-I. Think of the chord progressions from “Blue Moon” or “Heart and Soul.”) I could understand why Frank hates it (it is ubiquitous), but it’s odd to hear him call it white people’s music, as it is the [cornerstone progression in jazz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ii-V-I_turnaround), very much a music rooted in African-American culture. I would certainly agree that it’s an amalgamation of African influences with Western music (the blues wasn’t a ii-V-I form), but it’s been adopted freely by musicians of all backgrounds and cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/36 "2009-09-19T18:42:48Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Sorry to nitpick, Bo, but the distance from the I to the IV is 2 and a half steps, from the I to the V is 3 and a half steps. The numbers denote the position in the scale, not the number of steps from the I. You are, of course, correct. As I say, I’m a simple snowboarder, self taught from books and guitar mags for 20 years now. I know what chords to play for a given progression, and can sometimes pick it out by ear, but I’m not very good at teaching or explaining. I do try, tho, as best I can. Thank you for correcting my poor attempts. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688/37 "2009-09-19T18:46:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Sorry, yes. I didn’t know how best to notate it, but that flat goes with the III. > > And, yes, Frank was talking about the ii-V-I. Its expanded cousin is the vi-ii-V-I. (Sometimes known as the “50s progression,” along with its variant vi-IV-V-I. Think of the chord progressions from “Blue Moon” or “Heart and Soul.”) > > I could understand why Frank hates it (it is ubiquitous), **but it’s odd to hear him call it white people’s music** , as it is the [cornerstone progression in jazz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ii-V-I_turnaround), very much a music rooted in African-American culture. I would certainly agree that it’s an amalgamation of African influences with Western music (the blues wasn’t a ii-V-I form), but it’s been adopted freely by musicians of all backgrounds and cultures. Ah, but consider Frank’s upbringing and coming of age in the '50s, where cheesy doo-wop and white co-opting of “black” music was rampant. He both loved and hated a lot of things from the era, as you can hear on many of his later compositions. I mean, just listen to _Cruising with Ruben & the Jets_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-chord-progression/510688.md?page=1)