# What is this linguistic phenomenon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039 "2021-03-16T18:10:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/181 "2021-09-13T01:53:44Z")
I’m sorry, but it’s not “very well attested” that window-curtain was a common phrase. According to Google ngrams (which you also cited, so presumably trust), those two words used together has never been particularly common, any more than you’d expect from straightforward collocation. The word curtain has come to - except in the theatre - nearly always mean the kind you use on a window. The meaning has become narrower. Agreed. And it interesting the way words change meaning over time, from general to narrow, or from one specific type of narrow meaning to a different but related one. But it’s not a case of a word dropping a modifier that was used as part of the word, like motor-car dropped the word motor. “Window-curtain” with or without the hyphen just was never very common as a phrase. Funnily enough I was actually looking recently for some door curtains, and it was annoying because everywhere comes up with regular curtains (they have slightly different features), so I do understand what you mean about the meaning of the word having narrowed in general use. What I dispute is the claim that “window curtains” was ever common. And that’s pretty much indisputable, or should be. And it means it’s not an example of a compound word that dropped its modifier. So I’m not sure if what you’re thinking of is a form of semantic narrowing, which would apply to the way the word curtains has changed, or something more specific about dropping a modifier. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/182 "2021-09-13T01:55:49Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > What I dispute is the claim that “window curtains” was ever common. Well, I suppose that dispute is fundamentally unresolvable without some objective quantitative criterion for the term “common”. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/183 "2021-09-13T02:09:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, I suppose that dispute is fundamentally unresolvable without some objective quantitative criterion for the term “common”. True, but you can do that when comparing two words or compound words. I’d think that the Google ngram shows that “window curtains” was always extremely uncommon when compared to the word curtains alone. Even accounting for the fact that every instance of the word curtains will include the ones that said window curtains, it’s a really marked difference. Anyway. Is semantic narrowing anything like what you were thinking of, or is it something a little different? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/184 "2021-09-13T02:19:13Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Anyway. Is semantic narrowing anything like what you were thinking of, or is it something a little different? I think what I’m talking about doesn’t have the “narrowing” part. Some semantic narrowing did happen in the shift in meaning of the more general term to default to the more specific form of it (“heels” means by default “heels that are high”, “curtains” means by default “curtains on a window”, etc.). What I’m talking about is specifically the loss of the modifier because the more general term now defaults to the more specific meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/185 "2021-09-13T12:08:00Z")
Would “electronic calculator” and “electronic computer” be examples? A “calculator” and a “computer” were terms talking about people in the early 20th century and before, so when devices were created to do the same job, the modifier was needed - but now the modifier is dropped, and it’s taken for granted that a “calculator” or “computer” refers to a electronic machine ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/186 "2021-09-13T14:16:15Z")
Yes, I think those are illustrating the same sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/187 "2021-09-18T09:25:52Z")
Elided modifier. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2021, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/188 "2021-09-18T09:46:24Z")
Just to toss another word onto the bonfire - consensus. It boils my piss (yes I know it’s unreasonable) when people say or write “consensus of opinion”. What’s the consensus here? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/189 "2021-09-28T21:53:07Z")
I went to elementary school with some kids who pronounced pen as “pin.” To make the meaning clear, they would ask to borrow an “ink-pin” (ink-pen.) There’s a retronym for you. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2021, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/190 "2021-10-03T11:39:20Z")
That’s really interesting! In some regional varieties of Spanish, “b” and “v” are pronounced identically. People there learn to say (this is the México version), when spelling out a word aloud: “[b/v] de burro” or “[b/v] de vaca” — i.e., “donkey…” or “cow…” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2021, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/191 "2021-10-03T11:40:56Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > What’s the consensus here? I’ve never heard that, but yes, it’s tautologically redundant. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/192 "2021-10-04T11:57:03Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > In some regional varieties of Spanish, “b” and “v” are pronounced identically. I thought this was the case in standard Spanish. Both letters are represented as /b/ in IPA. There’s an interesting discussion and some history of it here: [pronunciación - Why is the 'b' and 'v' pronunciation inconsistent? - Spanish Language Stack Exchange](https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/12890/why-is-the-b-and-v-pronunciation-inconsistent) > According to the _[Diccionario panhispánico de dudas](http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=v)_ of the Real Academia Española de la Lengua, > > > There’s no difference in the pronunciation of _b_ and _v_ in Spanish: both represent nowadays the bilabial voiced sound /b/. Spanish Orthography has mantained both letters, which represented different sounds in Latin, for reasons of tradition ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/193 "2021-10-04T14:59:27Z")
Bery interesting— thanks. I guess I was conflating with the the “c/s/z” distinction, which is indeed regional. (BTW, I found the Real explanation most informative, until they blew it with “… it’s a mistake some people make…”. I know, I know, they’re prescriptive…Let’s not hijack here, and anyway, we beat this horse to death in a heated conversation with dearest Nava a decade ago.) ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/194 "2021-10-04T22:03:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Both letters are represented as /b/ in IPA. When I studied Spanish in school we were taught that the phoneme represented by “b” and “v” is pronounced as a voiced bilabial fricative /β/, but the phonetic realisation depends on speaker and context, tending to a stop /b/ at the end of words. These sounds are perceived by Spanish speakers as the same sound (allophones of the same phoneme) but could be perceived by English speakers as [b] or [v] or something in between. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2021, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/195 "2021-10-04T22:26:04Z")
Yes, that is correct, to my knowledge. They are allophonic and the realization does vary. To my ears, it sounds like a “softer” b or something like that, at least in the variety of Spanish spoken in my neighborhood. We were taught in Spanish class that they were the same sound, and the Spanish language academy seems to “officially” recognize them as representing the same sound. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/196 "2021-10-09T05:58:22Z")
“mumma is outraged” does position the amount of rage to be at the extreme. So its just like saying “mumma is very raged”. Its whether it gives a meaning or not. Often we are comparing the properties of the things that are local, so we don’t know if the quality is extreme only amount the local things, or among the broader world of those things. “John is very strong”… Thats poor in meaning, because if John is a tiny earthworm we don’t know which set of animals he is in the very strong range of. of the local garden, of earthworms his size ? of any earthworms ? it just means not enough words used. You are free to say “John and Michael were having a fight, and Michael felt sure he was strong , but John won because John is very strong”. at least we have an implied set of things in which John fits in the very strong range. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/197 "2021-10-09T06:30:23Z")
I was collectively accused of “gaslighting” in a Facebook group I’m part of. The group provides discussion and support around some budgeting software. The developer recently made some quite significant changes to the way the software worked. A number of people were complaining about a particular change and a bunch of other people were saying variations on either “that hasn’t changed” or “it doesn’t matter, I never used it that way.” Someone got upset and accused us of “gaslighting” her complaint. It turned out that people were using two different workflows to achieve the same thing and many of the people using one workflow weren’t aware that the other workflow existed. The software changes removed the ability to use one of the workflows. So you get a small number of people saying they can’t use the app, and another, larger, group saying you can use the app and that nothing has changed. > [@Isilder](#): > > “John is very strong”… Thats poor in meaning It’s not the “very” that is the issue here though is it? If it said “John was strong” you’d still have all the same problems you describe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039.md?page=9)