# What is this linguistic phenomenon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 16, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039 "2021-03-16T18:10:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/161 "2021-09-08T11:32:40Z")
Good question! There probably isn’t a specific, “official” word for this, but some linguist may have written a paper on it, and gave it a name no one else uses (yet). “Motor-car” would be another. Soon, perhaps, “smart-phone.” I don’t think John McWhorter has discussed this in his “Lexicon Valley” podcast, but maybe he has — it’s just the kind of thing he WOULD discuss. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/162 "2021-09-08T14:13:51Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > A lot of words that originally meant something extreme one way or the other end up meaning “really good”. > > Great > Fantastic > Terrific > Spectacular. > Tremendous > Sensational > Awesome Let’s not forget _fabulous_. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/163 "2021-09-08T14:17:02Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I don’t think John McWhorter has discussed this in his “Lexicon Valley” podcast, Just BTW he left Slate and his podcast is now at **[Booksmart](https://www.booksmartstudios.org/p/introducing-lexicon-valley-with-john)**, although that platform does not seem as readily available in podcast apps. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/164 "2021-09-08T14:49:19Z")
Thanks! Yup, I follows him there. Gotta click on Booksmart’s “archive” now (at least in my configuration). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/165 "2021-09-08T16:37:36Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > “Motor-car” would be another. Ooh, good one! ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/166 "2021-09-12T02:53:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “High heels”, i.e., a particular kind of shoe with heels that are high, becomes just “heels”, still referring specifically to shoe heels that are high. > > “Finger-ring”, i.e., a ring small enough to wear on the finger, becomes just “ring”, still meaning specifically a ring for the finger. > > “Window-curtains”, i.e., a particular type of soft divider installed on a window (as opposed to a door curtain, bed-curtains, theater curtain, etc.), becomes just “curtains”, still signifying curtains on a window. > > What’s this phenomenon called?? Are those all real examples? I mean, were they all originally called by the terms you’re using, and then dropped the modifier? I would have thought that the word ring has always existed independently, for example. It’s not a shortening of finger-ring. Curtains, I’m fairly sure, is not a shortening of window-curtains. “Heels” is a better example - in the context I assume you mean, anyway. That’s kinda a synechdoche because generally it isn’t just referring to wearing heels that are high, like thick platform heels on biker boots, it’s specifically high and usually dressy, somewhat pointy heels, so the “heels” represent one part of the whole shoe, but we understand that the speaker means something a woman in an evening gown might wear. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/167 "2021-09-12T03:30:24Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Are those all real examples? Yes. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I mean, were they all originally called by the terms you’re using, and then dropped the modifier? Yes. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I would have thought that the word ring has always existed independently, for example. It’s not a shortening of finger-ring. The basic word “ring” meaning some kind of closed circular shape (including the finger-ornament kind of ring) does of course go back a long way. But, as I said, it was modified by compounding it with “finger” to specify a particular type of closed circular shape used as an ornament for the finger. And then the term “finger-ring” lost its modifier, but the more general word “ring” still retained that particular connotation of a finger ornament. (If you look at the term “finger-ring” in Google Ngram Viewer, you can see how it rapidly climbed in popularity during the 1800s and then gradually declined in the 1900s.) Of course the more general term “ring” can still be used to mean other things in other contexts, but the point is that it frequently defaults to that more specific meaning. If you hear somebody say “I lost my ring yesterday”, you aren’t going to assume that they lost an arm-ring or a toe-ring or an O-ring or a blackmail ring. You’re going to assume that what they lost is a ring-shaped ornament worn on the finger. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Curtains, I’m fairly sure, is not a shortening of window-curtains. Again, the basic word “curtains” to mean some kind of hanging fabric panel used to screen or enclose something is an old term. But it was modified by compounding it with “window” to specify a particular type of hanging fabric panel used to screen a window. And then the term “window-curtains” lost its modifier, but the more general word “curtains” still retained that particular connotation of a covering for a window. Unlike the finger-ring, window-curtains weren’t even in use until the past few hundred years. The original function of curtains was to divide rooms or enclose something within a room, like bed-curtains or altar curtains. Windows traditionally might have shutters or carved or paper screens, etc., depending on where you were in the world and in history, but hanging fabric curtains over them is comparatively new. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/168 "2021-09-12T13:02:26Z")
It seems like the term you are looking for would be the opposite of **retronym** \* but I haven’t found a name for the phenomenon. \* a word that has a modifier added to keep its _original_ meaning, like “bar soap” or “dairy milk” ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/169 "2021-09-12T18:57:15Z")
It’s still not clear to me what you mean. So curtains and ring weren’t the original words; why is it odd that they’re still the original words? Were “finger-ring” and “window-curtain” ever in common use? I’m sure I’d have noticed them in old books if I’d come across them. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/170 "2021-09-12T19:06:29Z")
I’ve seen window curtains ( without the hyphen) plenty - but possibly only in contexts where door curtains or shower curtains were also being sold. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/171 "2021-09-12T19:07:28Z")
[Google NGrams has many examples](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22finger+ring%22&lr=lang_en&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1926,cd_max:1935,lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=AOaemvIrb0AJS0Y8q_MNiI4LklGdv42qAg:1631473263232&ei=b04-YeXVDdT89AOH8LiAAQ&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwilycLCj_ryAhVUPn0KHQc4DhAQ8NMDegQIARBT&biw=1607&bih=1079&dpr=1). > WHEN a _finger ring_ pinches too tightly, or must be removed in a hurry so that the doctor may treat an injury, the ingenious … > (A _finger ring_ will serve the purpose.) The ring is firmly attached to the loop of string, and you and two other persons pull on different parts of the loop. (See Figs. 3 and 4.) Suddenly the ring drops right off the string > The above authorities do not answer the question involved in this case , which is — Can a gold _finger ring_ designed to contain a watch movement be , as a matter of law , jewelry ? > and catgut string running from ring to trigger to discharge the gun SHOT by a trigger worn as a _finger ring_ , a wrist gun that belches out clouds of tear gas has been designed for the protection of clerks, cashiers and payroll mes ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/172 "2021-09-12T19:10:39Z")
Um, I’m not doubting that the terms have ever been used! Just whether they were common enough that you could say that “curtain” is a shortening of “window curtain.” ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/173 "2021-09-12T19:30:25Z")
[Apparently](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22window+curtain%22&lr=lang_en&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1926,cd_max:1935,lr:lang_1en&tbm=bks&sxsrf=AOaemvLb7Ouq0fffT6Tt76len9Nl5wPmpQ:1631474555664&ei=e1M-YdrrJ-Kzgge6g7e4BA&start=0&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwialeaqlPryAhXimeAKHbrBDUc4UBDy0wN6BAgBEEA&biw=1600&bih=757&dpr=1) “window curtain” ( no hyphen) was pretty commonly used in the 1920 and 1930s - the following quotes are not from catalogs > As to Exhibit 2 , the defendant contends that it is not a lace _window curtain_ , but merely material , and that this material is net or netting . We find from an examination of the record , including an inspection of the sample … > Q. Did you have a _window curtain_ in the window ? A. Yes , sir . Q. Did that belong to you ? A. Yes , sir ; certainly it belonged to me . Q. What was the price of that ? A. $ 2.50 . 99 Q. Mr. Levine , did you have any lettering on that … > They crossed the room toward the window but as Harry reached out to pull the _window curtain_ aside, the better to watch the storm, he jerked his arm back as though from an electric shock and his elbow found the pit of his chum’s stomach. > He hid his face in the dusty lace _window curtain_ . He looked very small. I could not help remembering how father had said we were to take care of him and not make him cry. Somehow that morning things went ill with the adventure. > Toward the close of the act , thunder is heard and someone draws the window shade while preparations are made for the rain scene , which is seen through the window when the _window curtain_ is raised . This interval was also necessary for … ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/174 "2021-09-12T19:36:54Z")
I’m sorry for being picky, but I’m not sure how some cites existing proves the term was “in common use.” Google ngram seems to think it wasn’t -the red line showing results for “window curtain” barely make it onto the graph: > **[Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=curtain%2C%2Bwindow%2Bcurtain&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccurtain%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwindow%20curtain%3B%2Cc0#t1%3B%2Ccurtain%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwindow%20curtain%3B%2Cc0)** > > Google Books Ngram Viewer ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/175 "2021-09-12T19:40:58Z")
Can’t check for instances of ring, obviously, because it will always be much more common than finger-ring due to having multiple meanings, not just the jewellery term, so it wouldn’t be a useful comparison. Incidentally, two of the examples for “finger ring” given above weren’t even for the jewellery item either. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/176 "2021-09-12T20:14:32Z")
“Common use” doesn’t necessarily mean to the exclusion of all other uses - but it’s pretty clear that in the past, “window curtain” was not used exclusively in contexts where there was a need to distinguish between window curtains and door curtains and shower curtains. But the phrase wouldn’t be used today in a sentence that already contained the word window - so at the very least, it didn’t seem odd to be used that way in three of the above quotes. I mean, if someone today asked another person “Did you have a window curtain in the window?” the person being asked would almost certainly think ( and might even say ) “What other sort of curtain would I have in the window?” . Nobody today would say or write > " which is seen through the window when the _window curtain_ is raised" So it would appear that back then , just mentioning curtains might have resulted in being asked “what kind” - much like at a certain point in my life mentioning a typewriter may have resulted in being asked " manual or electric". ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/177 "2021-09-12T20:25:36Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > “Common use” doesn’t necessarily mean to the exclusion of all other uses I never said it was. But it does mean that it’s not SO uncommon that it barely charts at all. The “window curtain is raised” example is because it’s a stage direction from a play, so simply saying “when the curtain is raised” would be extremely confusing. In modern play texts they would, indeed, specify window curtain in that context too. It’s not because people back then frequently specified which type of curtains they meant, it’s because it’s the text of a stage play. The first example, also is from a court case, where being extremely specific is commoner than in any other context. If you look at the extract, it’s because the specific description of the item made a difference in customs duty. The second example is the same court case. So that leaves one example, really. I’m sure there are more than that, but “common use?” Nah. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/178 "2021-09-13T00:57:58Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Just whether they were common enough that you could say that “curtain” is a shortening of “window curtain.” Yes. As I explained above, “curtain” was a common word for a common object—namely, some kind of drapery dividing or enclosing some part of a space—before curtains were used on windows at all. So yes, the term “window curtain” came into use at some point after the practice of using curtains on windows came into use, in order to differentiate window curtains from other types of curtains. But nowadays other types of curtains are sufficiently rare that a curtain on a window has become the default meaning of the unmodified term “curtain”, so we don’t use the modified term “window curtain” much anymore. I’m not trying to claim that the unmodified term “curtain” was never also used to mean a curtain on a window. Nor that the unmodified term “ring” wasn’t also used to mean a ring on a finger. But my point is that those words also had more general meanings, which is what led to the creation of the (very well attested) terms “finger ring” and “window curtain” to differentiate them from the more general meanings. And then those modified terms fell out of use, as the thing each of them referred to came to be the unquestioned default meaning of the more general term. What I want to know is, what’s that called? > [@doreen](#): > > It seems like the term you are looking for would be the opposite of **retronym** \* but I haven’t found a name for the phenomenon. > > - a word that has a modifier added to keep its _original_ meaning, like “bar soap” or “dairy milk” Interesting! And yes, clearly a related phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/179 "2021-09-13T01:09:39Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > So that leaves one example, really. I’m sure there are more than that, but “common use?” Nah. Oh, for pity’s sake. [James Joyce, Dubliners:](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2814/2814-h/2814-h.htm) > [@](#): > > Her head was leaned against the window curtains and in her nostrils was the odour of dusty cretonne. [Lady Barker, The Bedroom and Boudoir:](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/41922/41922-h/41922-h.htm) > [@](#): > > This leaves you more free for bright, effective bits of colour for sofa, table-cover, &c., and the feeling of the window curtains can be carried out again in the screen. [Gordon Holmes, A Mysterious Disappearance:](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34277/34277-h/34277-h.htm) > [@](#): > > Alice, Lady Dyke, puckered her handsome forehead into a thoughtful frown as she drew aside the window-curtains of her boudoir. [James Barrie, Peter Pan:](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16/16-h/16-h.htm) > [@](#): > > They were really doing it artfully from behind the window curtains. [Percy James Brebner, Christopher Quarles:](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34468/34468-h/34468-h.htm) > [@](#): > > while I crouched close to the wall behind one of the window curtains. There are literally thousands of similar instances. If you haven’t seen a lot of recorded dialogue from the 19th and early 20th centuries, I get why the term “window curtain” might strike you as unfamiliar, but absolutely it was a very commonly used term back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039/180 "2021-09-13T01:24:08Z")
I also noticed the increase in usage. My personal theory (no evidence to support it) is that it started with Trump’s disregard for the truth and the way his followers have adopted the his strategy of proclaiming obviously false statements. (“My inaugural crowd was the largest in history!”) That’s not quite gaslighting in the classic definition, but it feels similar in effect. After all, it is a leading cause of Trump Derangement Syndrome, which I know is a term used to mock us liberals but which I think has a grain of truth to it - I freely admit to having suffered TDS. As more politicians/conservative media personalities followed Trump’s example and presented outrageous claims as simple fact, a term like “gaslight” became more useful because it captured the frustration of those of us who could see through the lies, but were powerless to stop them. Sez me, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-linguistic-phenomenon/938039.md?page=10)