# What is this "Spirituality" you Earthmen speak of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029 "2005-06-27T12:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/41 "2005-06-28T04:47:23Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Basically, I don’t believe the Universe gives a sweet patootie for you, me, Jane Russell, or anyone else There are, of course, activities I enjoy (researching and writing my books, for instance), but it’s just because they fulfill my personal quirky interests, not because they are important in any way or balance my chakras or anything. I don’t tend to think the universe gives a sweet patootie either; I choose to associate certain meanings with things nonetheless. The universe doesn’t care whether or not I have those meanings in my head; some individual things might notice as I act accordingly, but in the long run, my brain, that meaning-creating entity that it is, will rot. I find that level of long run to be not terribly useful for judging what I’m doing _now_, though. I think I agree with **Left Hand of Dorkness** rather strongly in some ways; my sense of spirituality is very tightly related to my sense of aesthetics. I find the process of creating a sense of meaning very similar to the process of creating a sense of beauty, and I happen to prefer activities in which I can combine them. (This is also why I find certain forms of religious/spiritual arguments deeply pointless; I don’t derive any value from arguing about What Is Art, Anyway either. I can’t bring myself to treat differences of subjective human valuation as matters of cosmic importance.) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/42 "2005-06-28T04:50:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Are all Christians basically the same? All Muslims? No. Spirituality is a pretty broad term to try and pin down in a few words or one or two catagories. A Christian follows the teachings of Christ, a Muslim the teaching of Mohammed. These definitions may not be completely correct, but they are close. Spirituality is far more nebulous. > [@](#): > > Was Gandhi a flake? Martin Luther King? I thought Gandhi was a hindu and MLK was a christian? In any case, if they claimed to be ‘spiritual’, I’d be tacking on an =flake until I found a reason to remove it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/43 "2005-06-28T11:12:59Z")
Spirit and reality are synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/44 "2005-06-28T11:40:30Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > [Oops, my computer won’t do one of those “does not equal” > marks . . .] I don’t get it. In my own mind, it seems like it would be “/=”, but instead it seems to be “!=”. Most likely you can press Control, and some nuber or another, to get this ≠ but I do not know what number. ( I cut and pasted it from an Edit type program.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/45 "2005-06-28T11:50:39Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > A Christian follows the teachings of Christ, a Muslim the teaching of Mohammed. These definitions may not be completely correct, but they are close. Spirituality is far more nebulous. The definitions are far broader than that. Christians may follow what they believe to be the teachings of Christ and the specifics of those beliefs vary quite a bit from one chiristian to another. The same with Muslims. There can also be extreme differences in how their beliefs effect their behavior.The same with folks who claim to be spiritual rather than religious. Beliefs vary and the type of people who make the claim vary quite a bit. > [@](#): > > I thought Gandhi was a hindu and MLK was a christian? In any case, if they claimed to be ‘spiritual’, I’d be tacking on an =flake until I found a reason to remove it. The subject of the thread seems to be specifically spirituality apart form organized religion. That is not the limit of it’s meaning. Spirituality exists within the individual and whether or not they choose to be a member of an organized religion doesn’t change the fact that they are spiritual people. I would guess that within every congregation, mosque, or temple you might find some who are very spiritual and some who are not. You don’t have to read much of Gandhi’s writings to see how very spiritual he was. MLK fashioned his own life and cause in large part after Gandhis’. If these two men were flakes then I hope a lot more flake’s show up. The sooner the better. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/46 "2005-06-28T12:15:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The definitions are far broader than that. Christians may follow what they believe to be the teachings of Christ and the specifics of those beliefs vary quite a bit from one chiristian to another. The same with Muslims. … Yes, but when someone says they are a Christian, I have a pretty good idea of what that means. That statement could range from a fundamentalist to a think about it come Christmas time variety of believer. It could cover a broad range of sects from Catholic to Protestant. But at least I know what the underlying tenant is. Someone who says they are Spiritual can range from Flake to Christian Light to any number of things. My experience has been ‘=flake’ for those who say it. If you say Gandi and MLK were spiritual then I’ll say it doesn’t always equal flake. Rules sometimes have exceptions. > [@](#): > > You don’t have to read much of Gandhi’s writings to see how very spiritual he was. MLK fashioned his own life and cause in large part after Gandhis’. If these two men were flakes then I hope a lot more flake’s show up. The sooner the better. This begs another question that probably deserves its own thread, “Do you have to be Spiritual to equal the accomplishments of a Gandhi?”. And as I sit here thinking about it another could be, “What did Gandhi accomplish that was so gosh darn important?” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/47 "2005-06-28T12:28:07Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, nothing to “have at.” You believe all that; I don’t. You’re spiritual; I’m not. Thanks for your honesty, I respect who you are, and what you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/48 "2005-06-28T12:33:44Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Spirit and reality are synonyms. I think I’d rather hit my thumb with a spirit hammer than a real one when I miss while driving in a nail, but the spirit hammer takes such a long time to drive that darn nail, so I continue to take my chances with a real hammer. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/49 "2005-06-28T12:34:16Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I have an extremely strong suspicion that most people who describe themselves as “spiritual” do it for social reasons rather than philosophical. It’s considered even more uncool to be non-spiritual than to be an atheist. > > And of course they think that if you’re not spiritual, you’re a materialist, as if those were the only options. > > I believe in many things that aren’t physical (in the normal sense of the word). I believe in reason, love, dignity, beauty, empathy, and a whole lot of other “non-material” things, none of which require my belief in spirituality. I believe labels are meaningless, I look for the actions not the words. The non-material things you speak of are spiritual values. So, you may be more spiritual than you realize. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/50 "2005-06-28T12:45:41Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I am a former Catholic/current agnostic with a childhood history of temporal lobe epilepsy, although not of the sort that makes you write long-ass novels. I do not consider myself a ‘spiritual’ person in the sense that I think other people mean when they describe themselves that way. Much of what they seem to be describing sounds to me like magical thinking or superstition/new agey stuff involving energy or auras. I have had experiences that I know were neurologically based, like problems evaluating the proper scale of objects, and I know that a person’s perception of the world can be very subjective. Thus identical events can have different degrees of significance for two observers based on brain chemistry, personal history, present emotional state, etc. > > Having said that, there have been times in my life when I felt that the event I was experiencing was particularly important and tied me in more closely to a greater extrinsic cycle. Two episodes immediately spring to mind. One was the birth of my son, at which point I remember having a sense of the vast unbroken chain of life that stretched from prehistory, through me, to my son. Another was when I stood on Steens Mountain in eastern Oregon and gazed into a deeply gouged glacial valley, at which point I could feel for a few seconds the immense weight of geologic history pressing down on me. Neither event involved what I would consider the supernatural - no sense of God’s presence, no sense of _meaning_, no departed loved ones. > > My personal definition of spirituality is that of a perception of personal connectedness to or involvement in processes that are many orders of magnitude beyond the personal. You may have a sense of your life as a part of God’s plan for the universe and be reassured, or you may get a hint of how ephemeral your existence is on the geologic timescale, and be cowed. Regardless, it seems to me that true spirituality is an amalgamation of perception and emotion rather than a set of beliefs or a personality trait. One can engage in behavior that tends to evoke spiritual feelings (meditation, drugs, etc.). It is likely that some people more easily access these perceptive/emotive states. But I wouldn’t say that my personal definition includes any sort of moral dimension, or requires the supernatural, or even implies that the spiritual experience is a pleasant one. This definition may be too individual to be applied universally. > > I think that organized religion taps into spiritual feelings, and offers many people a framework by which to understand and guide their spiritual experiences - by invoking the supernatural. Perhaps a good question for people who describe themselves as ‘spiritual’ is whether they believe in the supernatural. Basic spirituality is how you feel about yourself, the universe, and others. If this is a positive feeling then I believe you are spiritual. One need only follow the path of Love to find fulfillment. I don’t think anything is supernatural, all things are natural to this universe, some may happen infrequently, but still natural. Some spiritual people are advanced enough to do so-called “supernatual” things. Others think they are advanced enough to follow them. Be careful here. But no one needs to do those things to be spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/51 "2005-06-28T13:58:32Z")
My take is that spirituality is a mindset that gives the owner a sense of meaning and purpose. It fulfils the emptyness that some suffer who would otherwise turn to drugs, gambling or shopping. Different owners have different versions of this spirituality of which you speak, but it serves the same purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/52 "2005-06-28T14:24:51Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > My take is that spirituality is a mindset that gives the owner a sense of meaning and purpose. It fulfils the emptyness that some suffer who would otherwise turn to drugs, gambling or shopping. You say “shopping” like it’s a _bad_ thing! ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/53 "2005-06-28T14:52:39Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Now that I’m here I think it is far better for me that I am here than that I am not. Surely you remember the story of the two pessimistic German philosophers, one of whom exclaimed “How much happier were it never to have been born.” To which the other replied “True! But how few are those who achieve this happy lot.” ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/54 "2005-06-28T14:57:36Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > You say “shopping” like it’s a bad thing! Hey, what’s wrong with _drugs_? I can assure you that it’s not “abuse” - I do it _properly_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/55 "2005-06-28T15:20:07Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > This begs another question that probably deserves its own thread, “Do you have to be Spiritual to equal the accomplishments of a Gandhi?”. > And as I sit here thinking about it another could be, “What did Gandhi accomplish that was so gosh darn important?” Being in touch spiritually gives you great love which in turn leads to fearlessness. I would say Yes, it is necessary to be spiritual to accomplish great things. Look at all the people who accomplished great things and you will have your answer. By the way, Gandhi was the main player in convincing the British that India should govern herself. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/56 "2005-06-28T15:24:33Z")
> [@antechinus](#): > > My take is that spirituality is a mindset that gives the owner a sense of meaning and purpose. It fulfils the emptyness that some suffer who would otherwise turn to drugs, gambling or shopping. > > Different owners have different versions of this spirituality of which you speak, but it serves the same purpose. Then spirituality has great value helping people exercise self-discipline which makes them wiser and stronger. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/57 "2005-06-28T15:32:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I think I’d rather hit my thumb with a spirit hammer than a real one when I miss while driving in a nail, but the spirit hammer takes such a long time to drive that darn nail, so I continue to take my chances with a real hammer. I don’t mean to piss on your attempt at cleverness, but your division fallacy skews your analogy. Meanwhile, your thumb is already dying. And if it’s pain that bothers you, there are solutions from drugs to neurosurgery. That which is real ought not to be contingent on conventions of thought or language, and ought to exist regardless of subjective observations; e.g., empirical ones. It ought to be eternal, essential, and necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/58 "2005-06-28T18:35:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Spirit and reality are synonyms. > [@](#): > > That which is real ought not to be contingent on conventions of thought or language, and ought to exist regardless of subjective observations; e.g., empirical ones. It ought to be eternal, essential, and necessary. It has been suggested that an “ought” cannot be inferred from an “is”. Do you agree? You seem to be deriving an “is” from an “ought”. Why is this more legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/59 "2005-06-28T18:43:21Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > It has been suggested that an “ought” cannot be inferred from an “is”. Do you agree? You seem to be deriving an “is” from an “ought”. Why is this more legitimate? An “ought” implies a “necessary”, and a “necessary” implies an “actual”. Therefore, an “ought” implies an “actual”. (Which happens to be Malley’s First Axiom.) That all assumes that by “ought” we mean “it is obligatory that”. It is a deontic modality. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/60 "2005-06-28T19:06:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > An “ought” implies a “necessary”, and a “necessary” implies an “actual”. I’ll buy the latter, but the former sticks in my craw. Google is ignorant of this Malley cat. Who he? > [@](#): > > That all assumes that by “ought” we mean “it is obligatory that”. That’s fine if you’re God, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=4)