# What is this "Spirituality" you Earthmen speak of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029 "2005-06-27T12:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/101 "2005-06-29T18:59:45Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Well, for starters, letting mere mortals know that there was someone in the drivers seat through all of eternity would be the fair and right and kind thing to do. I love my husband. I know I will be losing my job in a few months. I let him know ahead of time because sneaky, disingenuous behavior is generally frowned upon in a loving relationship. I love my kids very much. If I stepped in and rescued them from the consequences of their inevitable dumbass choices they would never grow up to be adults. As they learn to be responsible adults they may come to me and say “Gee Dad, you were right but I couldn’t see it at the time” Then we will love each other as peers as well as parent and child, rather than parent and constantly dependent child. > [@](#): > > That’s right. Which is to say that our knowledge of the existence of a god is incomplete. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I’ll have to continue to believe that anything is possible, but not necessarily probable. As is your right. I recognize my knowledge is incomplete and try to respect the rights of others to discover the truth in their own way. What annoys me are folks like hard line athesits or religious zealots who assume the things they presume to be true must indeed to be the absolute truth. {no reflection on our exchange, just a little venting} > [@](#): > > I agree about the need for visionaries. In fact, they’re some of my favorite people. I don’t agree that believers in a higher power necessarily fall into that category…in fact, I believe most fall short. But that’s what makes the world go 'round, right? I would say Gandhi and Martin Luther King qualify. I’ll bet we could find others. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/102 "2005-06-29T19:01:23Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Doesn’t the quarry outrun us, sometimes? Not since AI got my P.F.Flyers 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/103 "2005-06-29T19:04:31Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Doesn’t the quarry outrun us, sometimes? The physical world, of course, has physical limitations. As animals, we pursue food, sex, play, and rest, and we don’t always get what we want. But as gods, we pursue fulfillment, and wherever we go, there we are. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/104 "2005-06-29T19:14:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > We pursue what we treasure, and we get what we pursue. My wife would love nothing more than an endless supply of popcorn shrimp, while I would consider that to be the foulest possible fate. It is ironic that some Christians will find themselves in the place of the prodigal son’s brother, mumbling and grumbling while people like Eve enjoy for eternity what she has always treasured. I tell you that God’s love for her is so great that He is willing to let her go, rather than impose Himself on her, since she has no interest in Him. And He wishes her nothing but the happiness that will be hers. I couldn’t tell you when it happened but I remember years ago coming to that realization and what an epiphany it was. I was reading the section in the NT when Jesus was talking about the prayers of the pharisees. They do it for attention and to be seen by others, so thats what they get and thats all. So much of what we treasure remains in our subconscious that a lot of people don’t even acknowledge what they treasure. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/105 "2005-06-29T19:31:47Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But as gods, we pursue fulfillment, and wherever we go, there we are. Once, I got there a half-hour late, and by the time I arrived, I’d left. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/106 "2005-06-29T19:39:45Z")
[self-nitpick] > [@honeydewgrrl](#): > > Do any of the unique byproducts of the chemical reactions within our physical selves that make us alive, aware, or self-aware (e. g. perceptions, instincts, behaviors, memories, emotions, preferences, personalities) endure after death? Instincts (and in some cases behaviors) don’t apply to what I’m trying to say and I shouldn’t have included them. I want to be clear that I’m not talking about genetic factors or reproduction. [/self-nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/107 "2005-06-29T20:10:30Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Well now you’ve gone and blown out the circuits of my bs-o-meter. You needed an upgrade anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/108 "2005-06-29T20:13:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You needed an upgrade anyway. 😃 That’s pretty funny! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/109 "2005-06-29T20:19:54Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Once, I got there a half-hour late, and by the time I arrived, I’d left. I know I’m in there, and if I don’t come out pretty soon…I’m going in after me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/110 "2005-06-29T20:25:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I love my kids very much. If I stepped in and rescued them from the consequences of their inevitable dumbass choices they would never grow up to be adults. As they learn to be responsible adults they may come to me and say “Gee Dad, you were right but I couldn’t see it at the time” Then we will love each other as peers as well as parent and child, rather than parent and constantly dependent child. But at least your kids know you’re _there!_ It’s pretty hard to turn to someone for guidance when they’re an absentee parent! [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/111 "2005-06-29T21:34:56Z")
Honestly, I think going on about gods is pretty much a red herring in a discussion of spirituality in general. Some people have a spiritual sense that does not include gods; some people with gods have a spiritual sense that does not include them specially, as well. (And I have nothing to say about omni-whatever gods, since none of mine are, even if I considered them relevant to the discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/112 "2005-06-29T21:51:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > But at least your kids know you’re _there!_ It’s pretty hard to turn to someone for guidance when they’re an absentee parent! Ah yes I anticipated this. My kids know I’m here but don’t consider me omnipotent. {the ungrateful shits} If God did make us aware of an omnipotent and omniscient existance, how could you call anything we did after that, free will. It is the sruggle with faith, truth, love, and the discovery of the nature of God {and our own nature for that matter} that helps us grow to be spritual adults rather than dependent children. **Lilairen** has suggested this may be a bit of a hijack which is not my intention. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/113 "2005-06-29T23:40:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > If God did make us aware of an omnipotent and omniscient existance, how could you call anything we did after that, free will. It is the sruggle with faith, truth, love, and the discovery of the nature of God {and our own nature for that matter} that helps us grow to be spritual adults rather than dependent children. Strikes me as a convenient way of explaining away the non-existance of gods. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/114 "2005-06-29T23:58:20Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Strikes me as a convenient way of explaining away the non-existance of gods. PLease explain. Ya lost me with that one. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/115 "2005-06-30T00:53:00Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Strikes me as a convenient way of explaining away the non-existance of gods. “What we see depends mainly on what we look for.” — John Lubbock ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/116 "2005-06-30T04:20:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, sorry. All you proved was that, _in that particular insta_nce, you counted two apples. You did not prove that,\* upon the next try\*, you will count the same number. You have not shown that there is a general analytic rule that we can always use to be assured of the same answer. I don’t need a rule that says everytime I have 1 apple and place another apple next to it, I’ll have two apples. I can use experience to say that this will happen everytime. If I do it a gazillion times and it always comes out two then I’m pretty much assured that that the next time it will still come out two. Have you ever had two apples magically become three apples? Do you constantly check the money in your pockets to see if that 10 dollar bill suddenly turned into a 20? [QUOTE] Again, you value things that you can see — like measurements. So your viewpoints are to be expected. But given the brain’s proclivity for lateral inhibition, it turns out that what you really are trusting is what you _don’t_ see. [QUOTE] Well, I’m pretty trusting that the spiritual hammer you just hung on the wall isn’t going to fall off and bonk me on the head, so yeah, I’d agree to this. > [@](#): > > Some men can see what others can only imagine. Some men end up in straight jackets in the looney bin for seeing them, too. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/117 "2005-06-30T04:29:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Ah yes I anticipated this. My kids know I’m here but don’t consider me omnipotent. {the ungrateful shits} > If God did make us aware of an omnipotent and omniscient existance, how could you call anything we did after that, free will. Are you aware of this fact? Most religions don’t try to hide the fact that he is omnipotent and omniscient. Most proclaim it as the gospel. If god exists as you say he does, then we don’t have free will. Thus my arguments are foreordained. We are nothing more than puppets to dance to the maker’s tune. ---
**Author:** ![Lear\_s\_fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/df788c/32.png) [@Lear\_s\_fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lear_s_fool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/118 "2005-06-30T04:41:37Z")
This thread reminds me of something Saul Bellow said in his nobel lecture (i know i’ve been evoking this lecture a lot lately but it is a damn fine piece of work). “The essence of our real condition, the complexity, the confusion, the pain of it is shown to us in glimpses, in what Proust and Tolstoy thought of as “true impressions”. This essence reveals, and then conceals itself. When it goes away it leaves us again in doubt. But we never seem to lose our connection with the depths from which these glimpses come. The sense of our real powers, powers we seem to derive from the universe itself, also comes and goes. We are reluctant to talk about this because there is nothing we can prove, because our language is inadequate and because few people are willing to risk talking about it. They would have to say, “There is a spirit” and that is taboo. So almost everyone keeps quiet about it, although almost everyone is aware of it.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/119 "2005-06-30T04:59:16Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t need a rule that says everytime I have 1 apple and place another apple next to it, I’ll have two apples. There is an important difference between induction and deduction. Important philosophically, rhetorically, and logically, at any rate, though not necessarily so in daily life. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/120 "2005-06-30T06:11:26Z")
> [@Lear's\_fool](#): > > This thread reminds me of something Saul Bellow said in his nobel lecture (i know i’ve been evoking this lecture a lot lately but it is a damn fine piece of work). > > “The essence of our real condition, the complexity, the confusion, the pain of it is shown to us in glimpses, in what Proust and Tolstoy thought of as “true impressions”. This essence reveals, and then conceals itself. When it goes away it leaves us again in doubt. But we never seem to lose our connection with the depths from which these glimpses come. The sense of our real powers, powers we seem to derive from the universe itself, also comes and goes. We are reluctant to talk about this because there is nothing we can prove, because our language is inadequate and because few people are willing to risk talking about it. They would have to say, “There is a spirit” and that is taboo. So almost everyone keeps quiet about it, although almost everyone is aware of it.” Aware of what? Hell, I’m not even aware of whatever it is that Bellow is talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=7)