# What is this "Spirituality" you Earthmen speak of? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029 "2005-06-27T12:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/121 "2005-06-30T06:23:44Z")
**Lear’s\_fool** , after reading **Eve’s** OP, the attempts to answer, the honest skepticism, the snide retorts and the bigotted generalizations, I was about to move on without comment. And then you posted those marvelous words of Saul Bellow. I had not read them before. Until now, William Faulkner’s acceptance speech had been my favorite. Now I have printed a copy of what you posted and it hangs on the wall by my desk. It is one of the most affirming things that I have read in a long, long time. I will find a copy of the entire lecture. Pax ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/122 "2005-06-30T06:55:30Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Are you aware of this fact? Most religions don’t try to hide the fact that he is omnipotent and omniscient. Most proclaim it as the gospel. Most? Perhaps most of the denominations of the Abrahamic religions. This is not “most religions” by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Lear\_s\_fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/df788c/32.png) [@Lear\_s\_fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lear_s_fool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/123 "2005-06-30T07:08:44Z")
Here is the link to the transcript of of the whole lecture [http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1976/bellow-lecture.html](http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1976/bellow-lecture.html) Faulkner’s speech is a favorite of mine as well and nearly used a quote from it as well. But thought this had quite wisdom that was more appropriate than Faulkner’s boldness at the time. But Zoe I am glad that you liked it as much as i did :). Oh wait Bellow was Jewish 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/124 "2005-06-30T07:15:27Z")
[QUOTE=Lilairen] Most? Perhaps most of the denominations of the Abrahamic religions. This is not “most religions” by a long shot. [/QUOTE I think you’d have to look at each of the many religions to say for sure what their beliefs say so you are probably technically correct, yet the majority of the world’s population follows an Abrahamic religion. [World religions] ([http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm)) > [@](#): > > Flanders: Homer, God didn’t set your house on fire. > Rev. Lovejoy: No, but He was working in the hearts of your friends and neighbors when they came to your aid, be they Christian [camera pans to Flanders], Jew [Krusty], or…miscellaneous [Apu]. > Apu: Hindu! There are 700 million of us. > Lovejoy: Aw, that’s super. > > -The Simpsons, “Homer the Heretic” ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/125 "2005-06-30T07:41:10Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I think you’d have to look at each of the many religions to say for sure what their beliefs say so you are probably technically correct, yet the majority of the world’s population follows an Abrahamic religion. You didn’t say anything about populations, you said religions; the popularity of each one is irrelevant to a claim about what the majority of _religions_ hold to be true. This is one of my Great Debates windmills to tilt futilely against, to be honest. It’s rare for me to even get a response when I point out that the Abrahamic religions aren’t the only ones that exist, and for that I thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/126 "2005-06-30T07:54:26Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > You didn’t say anything about populations, you said religions; the popularity of each one is irrelevant to a claim about what the majority of _religions_ hold to be true. Correct, I should probably have been more specific. > [@](#): > > This is one of my Great Debates windmills to tilt futilely against, to be honest. It’s rare for me to even get a response when I point out that the Abrahamic religions aren’t the only ones that exist, and for that I thank you. To me they are all the same, so I tend to lump them together, or sometimes categorize them based upon either: gods/followers that wear funny headgear, or those that don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/127 "2005-06-30T10:51:57Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t need a rule that says everytime I have 1 apple and place another apple next to it, I’ll have two apples. Then why do you need the rule you just stated — the IDNAR Axiom? > [@](#): > > I can use experience to say that this will happen everytime. No, you really can’t. In fact, you can’t even test it with only your experience. You need rules of arithmetic. You need at least [five rules](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PeanosAxioms.html). > [@](#): > > If I do it a gazillion times and it always comes out two then I’m pretty much assured that that the next time it will still come out two. Gambler’s fallacy. That sort of reasoning is why Vegas happily installed history boards at all its roulette wheels. > [@](#): > > Have you ever had two apples magically become three apples? Only when the people who have counted them disregard the rules of logic and arithmetic in favor of empiricism. > [@](#): > > Do you constantly check the money in your pockets to see if that 10 dollar bill suddenly turned into a 20? False analogy. Transmogrification of matter is outside the scope of arithemtic. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/128 "2005-06-30T11:07:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Are you aware of this fact? Most religions don’t try to hide the fact that he is omnipotent and omniscient. Most proclaim it as the gospel. If god exists as you say he does, then we don’t have free will. Thus my arguments are foreordained. We are nothing more than puppets to dance to the maker’s tune. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/129 "2005-06-30T11:23:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No, you really can’t. In fact, you can’t even test it with only your experience. You need rules of arithmetic. Well, yes I can. I don’t have apples, but I do have pencils. Let’s see: I put on pencil on the table and now I’ll put another one. What did that make? Two pencils. I’ll do it again: Two pencils And again: two pencils and again: two pencils yet again: 2 pencils still. How long will it take before I get 3 pencils, or no pencils, or some other number of pencils? Wanna bet that the next time I place 2 pencils on the table it will only add up to two and only ever add up to two? Cause I ain’t doing it again unless you are willing to bet something, or prove that it won’t add up to two. What are you trying to argue here? That it won’t? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > How so? Well, as you made the statement I was responding to earlier I assume that you knew what you were talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/130 "2005-06-30T11:34:52Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Cause I ain’t doing it again unless you are willing to bet something, or prove that it won’t add up to two. What are you trying to argue here? That it won’t? No. What I am arguing is that I can prove that it _will_ always add up to two. You won’t even have to try it. Your tries prove nothing about the future, but only about the past. Without the rules, your tries are meaningless. Suppose, for example, that you flipped a coin a bazillion times, and every time it came up heads. Do you know what the odds are that it will come up heads the bazillion-and-first time? An experiment will not tell you, but rules will. You need the five rules I linked you to before even to defined what addition is. Here is [another link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano%27s_axioms) for you to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/131 "2005-06-30T11:40:53Z")
I had always assumed spirituality was a free-floating form of gullibility generally associated with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/132 "2005-06-30T12:06:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > No. What I am arguing is that I can prove that it _will_ always add up to two. You won’t even have to try it. Your tries prove nothing about the future, but only about the past. Without the rules, your tries are meaningless. Suppose, for example, that you flipped a coin a bazillion times, and every time it came up heads. Do you know what the odds are that it will come up heads the bazillion-and-first time? An experiment will not tell you, but rules will. You need the five rules I linked you to before even to defined what addition is. Are we not arguing the same point from different directions? We are arguing a ‘which came first, the chicken or the egg?’ here I think. People were able to add up apples before there was a rule stating why what they were doing worked. Once the rule was developed then people did experiments to prove that the rule worked in all cases. If I flipped a coin a bazillion times and it came up heads everytime, I’d assume that it was only ever going to come up heads. Being a neandertal and all that is the way I think. Do I personally need the rule when my experiments prove all I need to know? I’m not trying to pilot the space shuttle here. Then I’d assume that someone brighter than I, and a little closer timewise to his classes in Math and Logic back in university, would think up a rule that covered my findings. Are not rules developed because some person observered a phenomena that they, or someone else, decided could be quantified? > [@](#): > > Here is [another link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano%27s_axioms) for you to ignore. I didn’t ignore your last link, I just didn’t know why you posted it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/133 "2005-06-30T12:18:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well, as you made the statement I was responding to earlier I assume that you knew what you were talking about. That’s so cute!! I did know what\* I\* was talking about. I was asking that you explain the conclusion you drew. Care to try? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/134 "2005-06-30T12:20:13Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I had always assumed spirituality was a free-floating form of gullibility generally associated with religion. So any form of spiritual belief = gullibility? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/135 "2005-06-30T12:30:31Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > That’s so cute!! I did know what\* I\* was talking about. I was asking that you explain the conclusion you drew. Care to try? The ability to know what the outcome will be negates free will. An omniscient being would know that whatever you do will only end up in a specific outcome. No matter what you do will have been anticipated and will have no bearing on the final outcome. As this being is also omnipotent then all things are possible to it and everything it can think to do it can do. As this being is also supposedly the creator of the universe and all things in it, then because it is omniscient it knows the final outcome of its creation. It knows what each creature’s fate in its creation will be. There is no way to avoid your fate because it is determined by an omniscient and omnipotent being. Thus we are puppets on strings dancing to another’s tune. Is this what you were asking for? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/136 "2005-06-30T12:33:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Being a neandertal and all that is the way I think. Okely dokely. That’s just as well, since this isn’t even a debate. What I’ve told you about these matters are long established statements of fact. This whole sidetrack more properly belonged in General Questions. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/137 "2005-06-30T12:38:14Z")
> [@Lear's\_fool](#): > > “The essence of our real condition, the complexity, the confusion, the pain of it is shown to us in glimpses, in what Proust and Tolstoy thought of as “true impressions”. This essence reveals, and then conceals itself. When it goes away it leaves us again in doubt. But we never seem to lose our connection with the depths from which these glimpses come. The sense of our real powers, powers we seem to derive from the universe itself, also comes and goes. We are reluctant to talk about this because there is nothing we can prove, because our language is inadequate and because few people are willing to risk talking about it. They would have to say, “There is a spirit” and that is taboo. So almost everyone keeps quiet about it, although almost everyone is aware of it.” . . . And I was the dame in the audience blowing Saul Bellow a raspberry. " . . . So everyone keeps quiet about it, although almost everyone is aware of it." Well, no, professor, I beg to differ! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/138 "2005-06-30T12:48:29Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > . . . And I was the dame in the audience blowing Saul Bellow a raspberry. > > " . . . So everyone keeps quiet about it, although almost everyone is aware of it." Well, no, professor, I beg to differ! Right on, sistah. As I said before…no one’s been able to define it, but I’m pretty sure I don’t have it. Most people are not “aware” of it. Some folks just wish it were true. Huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/139 "2005-06-30T12:53:52Z")
Eve, you didn’t address what I said about you in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6313972&postcount=98). I know you’ve been inundated with responses, but I’m curious what you thought about it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029/140 "2005-06-30T12:54:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So any form of spiritual belief = gullibility? Pretty much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-this-spirituality-you-earthmen-speak-of/310029.md?page=8)